A front top mount question.

Can I make it very clear that I don't see this as a "Bilstein" issue. I contacted Bilstein, because I'm aware, from previous experience, that they have a support team who will respond.

Since any replacement shock, of any manufacturer, has to work with the existing spring, the replacement shock must provide similar performance, including ride height, to the OEM part.
Fitting a replacement shock, (of any brand), should not significantly alter ride height. This seems sometimes, (quite often?) not to be the case.
There is no suggestion that Sports springs are shorter, only that Sports front shocks are shorter, which both Bilstein and @carlston agree on.
Mac.
 
PlasticMac said:
@carlston if it's OK with you, I'll ask Dominique at [email protected] to comment on your thoughts.
Let me know if you agree.
Mac
Click to expand...

You're welcome to pass all my comments onto Dominique.

He may not be aware that the Audi A2 Sport uses standard ride height springs even though its a lowered ride height car, because as previously mentioned it's very rare for lowered ride height VAG cars to get their lowering from just the front shock absorbers, ie. most VAG cars that have lowered front suspension get their lowered ride height by using shorter front springs.

The fact that Bilstein are selling their Bilstein B4 22-196309 for the Fabia MK1 with lowered suspension confirms to me that they won't lower the Audi A2 if they are using standard ride height springs...which the Sport model does, eg. at least some Audi A2 1.4TDI Sport models use the 6Q0411105AD front springs...and these are not lowered ride heights springs as you can see from listings for front springs such as Sachs 997 841 and Spidan 56634 that are only sold to replace this OEM part number...so should be an exact match.

The length of the 6Q0411105AD front spring is actually longer than most Audi A2 standard ride height springs.

If the Bilstein B4 22-196309 really was suitable for Audi A2 Sport, it wouldn't be suitable for the Fabia MK1 with lowered suspension, because the Fabia MK1 with lowered suspension gets its lowered ride height by using shorter front springs and if the Bilstein B4 22-196309 also lowered the car when using standard ride height springs there would be two sets of lowering, eg. if the front shock absorbers lowered the car by 15mm and the springs lowered the car by 15mm...you would have a car that is lowered by 30mm...which is too much. Lowered VAG cars generally have a 15mm lowering compared to standard ride height.

Specification of 6Q0411105AD front spring (as used by some Audi A2 1.4TDI Sport models)
Wire diameter 11.25mm
Length 357mm
Number of coil turns 5.5
 
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When some A2 owners replaced the front shocks, no particular brands, the ride height sometimes increased noticeably.
As my Sport will, at some point, need suspension replacement, my curiosity was tweaked.
I had thought that the reduced Sport ride height was achieved by spring mount, top mount or cups of some sort.
Then I looked at 7 Zap, and found that there was a separate page for Sport and Standard front suspension. The only difference I could see was that the front shocks had different part numbers, 8Z0413031AD for Standard, and 8Z0413031AC for Sport.
It seemed likely, to me, that the difference was the ride height.
I then Googled A2 front shocks for my Sport, (no particular brand), I was offered only the 8Z0413031AD equivalent, the standard unit. Would fitting that to a Sport affect the ride height? I asked an expert.
The rest expert said yes, and that the handling could well be compromised.
Seemed straight forward. If you have a Sport, make sure you buy Sport shocks, (any brand), because they are physically shorter than the Standard units.

I don't want to get into a technical discussion with Bilstein or @carlston because I don't have the expertise to challenge two people that know what they are talking about. So, I'll not be asking Bilstein to comment on the @carlston posts, for that reason only.
So, for now, I'm out.
(When I come to replace my Sport front shocks, I'll be looking for 8Z0413031AC).
Mac.
 
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As a footnote, I've just looked at the product finder pages on the Monroe, Sachs, TRW, Boge etc websites, and I couldn't find a front strut for Sport suspension anywhere.
So, us Sport owners seem to have a real problem.
Mac.
 
I haven't read through the whole of this thread just scanned it but my understanding is that the Sport ride height was just 10mm lower than the Standard or SE suspension and this was achieved by using thinner rubber bump stops (10mm less) and the top mounts are the same.

Also @mac regarding the shock absorber part numbers you have quoted above with the C then D suffix, normally when a part has the same part number but with a different last letter it normally means that this is a later part that has superceded the original one but generally of the same spec, size and quite possibly is actually identical and sometimes is superseded many times much like the FSI coil packs you will be familiar with which are now on a H suffix I believe.

The last letters can also denote a colour code as it does regarding wheels when they make two (or more) identical wheels but in different finishes or colours 👍
 
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The strut part numbers came from the 7 Zap parts lists for Standard and Sport front suspension respectively.
Mac.
 
PlasticMac said:
The strut part numbers came from the 7 Zap parts lists for Standard and Sport front suspension respectively.
Mac.
Click to expand...
Yes I see, that's strange but they are still fundamentally the same part number.

I know there were lots of different factory part numbers for springs with different colour painted dots on them to denote the differences which depended on the weight of the vehicle determined by engine, open sky or not etc but not sure on the shocks but i would definitely expect them to have different parts numbers if they were different lengths 👍
 
Sorry for throwing in my uninformed comments but I’ve been following this with interest as I currently have a full set of Bilstein shocks on my living room floor, waiting to be fitted to my fsi sport. I am wondering if I should send the front ones back and order 22-196309 instead. One thing I’m still not clear on is, if the rear shocks are the same regardless of sport or SE, does that mean only the front is lowered in the sport version? Or does the lowering at the back come from the rubber buffers and at the front from the shock absorber? Also, would the difference between sport and standard struts be so significant so as to “definitely mess up the handling”?
 
Mihai said:
Sorry for throwing in my uninformed comments but I’ve been following this with interest as I currently have a full set of Bilstein shocks on my living room floor, waiting to be fitted to my fsi sport. I am wondering if I should send the front ones back and order 22-196309 instead. One thing I’m still not clear on is, if the rear shocks are the same regardless of sport or SE, does that mean only the front is lowered in the sport version? Or does the lowering at the back come from the rubber buffers and at the front from the shock absorber? Also, would the difference between sport and standard struts be so significant so as to “definitely mess up the handling”?
Click to expand...
Hi Mihai, does this help at all, I don't know if you've seen it but it seems thorough or 'definitive' 😊👍

Thread 'The Definitive Suspension Parts List' https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/the-definitive-suspension-parts-list.27044/

I also don't think the difference between Sport and SE is huge, the biggest difference to me was the larger wheels and lower profile tyres that contributed mostly to the firmer ride, further enhanced by a lot (or most) of the Sport wheels becoming flat spotted and out of round due to pot holes and the lack of tyre sidewall absorption 👍
 
Mihai said:
Sorry for throwing in my uninformed comments but I’ve been following this with interest as I currently have a full set of Bilstein shocks on my living room floor, waiting to be fitted to my fsi sport. I am wondering if I should send the front ones back and order 22-196309 instead. One thing I’m still not clear on is, if the rear shocks are the same regardless of sport or SE, does that mean only the front is lowered in the sport version? Or does the lowering at the back come from the rubber buffers and at the front from the shock absorber? Also, would the difference between sport and standard struts be so significant so as to “definitely mess up the handling”?
Click to expand...
Despite saying I would bow out for now, I asked Bilstein to double check the information I'd been given, as @carlston very detailed post left me concerned, especially as I could find no alternative source of Sport struts, meaning that if the Bilstein units were not Sport compatible, they could well be NLA.
I have received a detailed reply, which I have sent to @carlston for his reaction.
I hope it means Sport struts from Bilstein are OK, but I'll defer to his opinion.
I believe, for what it's worth, that fitting standard struts to a Sport is a bad idea.
Mac.
 
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Mihai said:
Sorry for throwing in my uninformed comments but I’ve been following this with interest as I currently have a full set of Bilstein shocks on my living room floor, waiting to be fitted to my fsi sport. I am wondering if I should send the front ones back and order 22-196309 instead. One thing I’m still not clear on is, if the rear shocks are the same regardless of sport or SE, does that mean only the front is lowered in the sport version? Or does the lowering at the back come from the rubber buffers and at the front from the shock absorber? Also, would the difference between sport and standard struts be so significant so as to “definitely mess up the handling”?
Click to expand...
I believe, from 7 Zap, and Bilstein info, that the rear shocks are the same for Standard and Sport. I don't know how, or even if, the rear ride height varies between Standard and Sport. I've focused on the front end.
The extent to which handling is affected, when Standard struts are fitted to a Sport car, (probably), depends on how the physical dimensions of the struts differ, and so upset the geometry.
I'm hoping that the info I've sent @carlston will clarify that 🤞
Mac.
 
A2Z said:
I haven't read through the whole of this thread just scanned it but my understanding is that the Sport ride height was just 10mm lower than the Standard or SE suspension and this was achieved by using thinner rubber bump stops (10mm less) and the top mounts are the same.
Click to expand...

The strut itself is different as mentioned previously by Mac.
 
dj_efk said:
The strut itself is different as mentioned previously by Mac.
Click to expand...
I think so, yes, but I'm not sure what the difference is.
The wheel alignment for the Sport has different camber settings, (same as the 1.2).
I'd be surprised if alignment shops know this.
My initial curiosity on ride height, has become the proverbial can of worms.
Mac.

Screenshot 2024-09-27 15.46.38.png
 
Mihai said:
Sorry for throwing in my uninformed comments but I’ve been following this with interest as I currently have a full set of Bilstein shocks on my living room floor, waiting to be fitted to my fsi sport. I am wondering if I should send the front ones back and order 22-196309 instead. One thing I’m still not clear on is, if the rear shocks are the same regardless of sport or SE, does that mean only the front is lowered in the sport version? Or does the lowering at the back come from the rubber buffers and at the front from the shock absorber? Also, would the difference between sport and standard struts be so significant so as to “definitely mess up the handling”?
Click to expand...
Good Evening,

An idea that may be worth following up.

You have a new Bilstein front shock on your living room floor. (I assume B4 and confirm part number).

I have a factory fitted (assumed) front shock recently removed from my FSI Sport on my garage floor.

I am happy to take measurements and post, if you did likewise it may demonstrate something.

Andy
 
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Andrew said:
Good Evening,

An idea that may be worth following up.

You have a new Bilstein front shock on your living room floor. (I assume B4 and confirm part number).

I have a factory fitted (assumed) front shock recently removed from my FSI on my garage floor.

I am happy to take measurements and post, if you did likewise it may demonstrate something.

Andy
Click to expand...
Great idea! I just measured exactly 58 cm from the top nut to the bottom of the shock. Or 21 cm - the visible part of the piston rod.

They’re B4 indeed, 22-105813.
 
Andrew said:
Okay, just busy now, will post my dimensions probably tomorrow. - Andy
Click to expand...
Although the jury, (@carlston ), is still out, the position of the spring seat, on the lower body may be the key.
So a comparative dimension from the bottom fixing to the seat on each might also be informative.
Bilstein say B4 22-196309 is the A2 Sport, and B4 22-105813 is the A2 Standard.
Mac.
 
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The measurement that is needed is the pinch bolt location centre to the bottom of the spring seat (perch height). If my speculation is right it will be less for a sport strut.
 
PlasticMac said:
Although the jury, (@carlston ), is still out, the position of the spring seat, on the lower body may be the key.
So a comparative dimension from the bottom fixing to the seat on each might also be informative.
Bilstein say B4 22-196309 is the A2 Sport, and B4 22-105813 is the A2 Standard.
Mac.
Click to expand...

The information that you received from Bilstein is simply a list of the OEM part numbers that the 22-196309 (similar dimensions to Bilstein B8) and 22-105813 (similar dimensions to Bistein B6) front shock absorbers are sold to replace.

Bilstein incorrectly says that these "match" their long list of OEM part numbers. Clearly their long list of OEM part numbers are not all the same. It would be more accurate if Bilstein said that these front shock absorbers are sold to replace their long list of OEM part numbers and that they might not match the specification of the original front shock absorbers exactly. However, aftermarket shock absorbers are operating in a competitive marketplace and they are all up to various shenanigans. Saying all that, I am a fan of Bilstein.

I have spotted three errors in their list of OEM part numbers for the Bilstein B4 22-196309 sports front shock absorbers, namely 6Q0413031BM, 6Q0413031BP, and 6Q0413031BR which are not lowered ride height front shock absorbers...so shouldn't be listed against 22-196309 but they are listed against both 22-196309 and 22-105813...so at least their listing against 22-105813 is correct.

Mistakes are very common in listings. I regularly see 55mm struts being sold as suitable to replace 50mm struts and vice-versa...when clearly the two aren't interchangeable. I've even seen front shock absorbers that are listed to replace rear shock absorbers and vice-versa.

Unless your front ride height is going to be at least 15mm lower than standard ride height, I would go with the standard ride height front shock absorbers, ie. 22-105813. If you use Eibach lowering springs from the much heavier Polo MK4/Fabia MK1, etc. then go for standard ride height front shock absorbers because these lowering springs will actually give standard ride height on the much lighter Audi A2.
 
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