Check your front suspension arms people

Thanks for the info. I've ordered some of the QH type as mentioned previously along with Lemforder bushes for the TDi, as well as the press tool.

Just need to try and see if I can do the job without dropping the console now - certainly won't be this weekend with work and the storm we've got forecast, but hopefully, I'll tackle things next weekend as we need to car back in action.
You don’t have to drop the consul my mechanic had the kit and pressed out in situ just be careful pressing new one in a shallow 1mm tapered lead helps your just giving it a small start file off or grind but in with your lemforder bush you will find the angle of the rubber flats inside as per this drawing ..hope this helps ...also if you use this dc4 (as recommended by Menno our Dutch member) it will certainly help get the new control arm spigot into new bush its easier with console left intact as you have something to lever new arm in ..good luck .
 

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Pinkythelabrat

A2OC Donor
Yikes! The disease has spread to Tank?!? Good to see you posting Mr Skipton - sorry about the circumstances. Hope all is going well with the new(ish) arrival.


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Menno

A2OC Donor
You don’t have to drop the consul my mechanic had the kit and pressed out in situ just be careful pressing new one in a shallow 1mm tapered lead helps your just giving it a small start file off or grind but in with your lemforder bush you will find the angle of the rubber flats inside as per this drawing ..hope this helps ...also if you use this dc4 (as recommended by Menno our Dutch member) it will certainly help get the new control arm into new bush its easier with console left intact as you have something to lever new arm in ..good luck .
Correct, an old big clamp which is big enough to grab behind the rear bush and the forward mounting point of the wishbone is mandatory. Console can stay in situ.
Did this job now about 4 times, off course on different cars, and failed 1 time because of coarse details on one of the wishbones. There were coarse pieces of metal on the part that had to slide in the rear bush on this particular cheaper version of the forged wishbone (non TRW, don't know the brand anymore) .
A quick sanding and polishing of the part solved this.
Please use some lubricant which can't harm rubber parts, so no oil or oil based grease!
It's required to use some lubricant, if you don't you'll be in a struggle for hours..... DC4 is what I use, kindly supplied by my employer 😁.

Here's a link to the Dutch A2 forum, scroll to the last post for pictures (easy, watch and see), if you want to read pull it through some Google translator, or ask me if it's not clear.


OH, and a question from my side;
I see it's called "cast" wishbone.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the wishbone is forged; pressed under high strength and temperture in a mould.

If it was cast it was poured in a mold and would be more brittle and has less bending strenght........ Not something you would have your car and wheel attached to.

Maybe I'm incorrect on this one, so please if you have knowledge about it; I want to know for no reason........ Are they forged or cast iron wishbones?

Cheers, Menno.
 

Joga

A2OC Donor
My experience is that if unlucky the console might need to be removed; namely if the thread for the front wishbone mount is damaged when the long M12 screw is removed. This happened to me and I saw no way to put in new thread insert without taking the console off. Hopfully that wont happen in most cases though ;).
 

Skipton01

Well-Known Member
Thanks all for your replies.

As the consoles (or brackets as I prefer to call them, as that's what they are!) have not to my knowledge ever been removed in 15 years, I'm expecting the exposed end to be a touch rotted, but I'll prepare for the work by getting plenty of penetrating oil around the area and the rear bushes too (silicone around the rubber should be best). Hopefully, the rot won't ruin the threads of the bracket as it comes out - fingers crossed!

The way I've seem the bush lined up in the past is to mark off the angle of the hexagon with a scratch mark on the housing before removing the old bush, then simply re-inserting the new bush accordingly. I'll be pressing it using the ebay kit as mentioned previously in this thread and will try to ensure the seating recess of 1mm. I've got quite a lot of silicone lub as I use it to clean the rubbers on the OpenSky mechanism at regular intervals - it's the stuff used to lubricate the flanges of underground pipe seals.

I think I'll try winding the old wishbone out using a 3 leg puller, rather than using a fork wedge, as it's a gentler way of doing it and if the lubrication prep has worked, it should hopefully be smooth.

I think the confusion over cast or forged comes from the fact that the wishbones are both cast AND forged. Initially, the parts are cast using sand/resin moulds and they're cast oversized. These castings are then heated and go through a series of presses which compact and shape the casting, refining the grain structure, increasing the density of the part and massively improving the resilience.

I've seen reference to a bolt that passes through a square plate, which sometimes spins, but can't see this on any of the part diagrams. Is it something to be aware of when just removing the front bush bolt?

Really hope I don't have to go down the Audi workshop manual way of doing the job as they say you've got to remove the drive shaft from the hub as one of the first steps! Bit overkill.
 

Menno

A2OC Donor
Thank you Sir for explanation regarding the cast/forged quiz!

Be prepared if you want to change the rear bush!
I also did buy the tool to remove it....... It wouldn't move at all! In the end some heat and hacksaw cutting and fierce mallet pounding got it out.
Was corroded stuck. Cleaned the console with abrasive paper, and the new bush together with some silicone went in to its new habitat like a charm, off course with some help of the tool.
Maybe you could leave the aft bush in place if it's in good nick, it's a full rubber silentblock and shouldn't be worn out.....

Regarding the front bolt; it is threaded in the Aluminium bracket/console (@Joga 's specialist ;) in this one). The console bolts itself are threaded through some plates if I'm correct..... I didn't want to go near them.

Wish you good luck with the operation Mr Skipton!
Keep an update on the repair.
 
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A2Steve

A2OC Donor
Thanks all for your replies.

As the consoles (or brackets as I prefer to call them, as that's what they are!) have not to my knowledge ever been removed in 15 years, I'm expecting the exposed end to be a touch rotted, but I'll prepare for the work by getting plenty of penetrating oil around the area and the rear bushes too (silicone around the rubber should be best). Hopefully, the rot won't ruin the threads of the bracket as it comes out - fingers crossed!

The way I've seem the bush lined up in the past is to mark off the angle of the hexagon with a scratch mark on the housing before removing the old bush, then simply re-inserting the new bush accordingly. I'll be pressing it using the ebay kit as mentioned previously in this thread and will try to ensure the seating recess of 1mm. I've got quite a lot of silicone lub as I use it to clean the rubbers on the OpenSky mechanism at regular intervals - it's the stuff used to lubricate the flanges of underground pipe seals.

I think I'll try winding the old wishbone out using a 3 leg puller, rather than using a fork wedge, as it's a gentler way of doing it and if the lubrication prep has worked, it should hopefully be smooth.

I think the confusion over cast or forged comes from the fact that the wishbones are both cast AND forged. Initially, the parts are cast using sand/resin moulds and they're cast oversized. These castings are then heated and go through a series of presses which compact and shape the casting, refining the grain structure, increasing the density of the part and massively improving the resilience.

I've seen reference to a bolt that passes through a square plate, which sometimes spins, but can't see this on any of the part diagrams. Is it something to be aware of when just removing the front bush bolt?

Really hope I don't have to go down the Audi workshop manual way of doing the job as they say you've got to remove the drive shaft from the hub as one of the first steps! Bit overkill.
Have never had any issues removing the consoles/brackets before. There will be corrosion on the mating surfaces, but in the removal of around 15 sets of these it’s never been more than a quick rub down with some wet/dry won’t sort out.

You will Definately not need to remove any driveshafts. Just split it on the ball joint and undo all the bolts. Lining it back up will be easy enough because the bodywork will have a mark where the housing was originally.
 

Skipton01

Well-Known Member
Have never had any issues removing the consoles/brackets before. There will be corrosion on the mating surfaces, but in the removal of around 15 sets of these it’s never been more than a quick rub down with some wet/dry won’t sort out.

You will Definately not need to remove any driveshafts. Just split it on the ball joint and undo all the bolts. Lining it back up will be easy enough because the bodywork will have a mark where the housing was originally.
Thing about removing the alloy brackets is that if it's not necessary to swap out wishbones, then why do it, especially if it can lead to issues with the little captive square nuts/plastic carriers? If the rear bushes are in good order, and the old wishbone pins come out without causing damage, I'll probably leave them in there, so the job should be made very easy. I will however get the penetrating lube on this week in preparation. What I fail to understand is why Audi chose to use a bolt that mates into an alloy bracket, instead of one that passes though and torques up with a nut on the end, as per the lower bolt on the rear shock absorbers for instance? It looks like the bolts used are not passivated either, so bimetallic corrosion will be a thing.
 

A2Steve

A2OC Donor
I just imagine it’s a pig of a job getting the arm out of the rear bush on the car. I’ve only ever used a complete unit and swapped the whole thing
 

Catnip64

A2OC Donor
I just imagine it’s a pig of a job getting the arm out of the rear bush on the car. I’ve only ever used a complete unit and swapped the whole thing
I used a two-legged puller and the arm came out of the bush surprisingly easy. The pin has a convenient dimple in the centre that locates the tool.
Getting in back in was not as simple though, however a large clamp provided sufficient sustained force to complete the job.
 

Skipton01

Well-Known Member
My main worry is backing off the bolt which passes through the front bush - I don't want to have it damage the thread on the alloy bracket. I'm contemplating cutting the exposed end of the bolt off - doubt a wire brush would be sufficient to stop any damage from occurring. If I can't get to the exposed end while the old wishbone is there, I'll cut off the front of the wishbone, as it's scrap on the OSF anyway, wind out the pin from the rear bush and then I should have easy access to the end of the bolt, so I can get a saw or grinder on it.
 

Menno

A2OC Donor
Don't worry too much! You know, it took me a while to start changing my wishbone because of all the horror stories.

Just clean what you can reach, soak it with penetrating oil and send the mf home!
You'll only know when you're starting the job if you're lucky or not.
If you're not, it's oké too; you will find a way to get it solved!
 

spike

Well-Known Member
Don't know if access allows but heating the alloy bracket may help.
Also the 'slacken, tighten' method to 'work' the thread a few degrees at a time may also help to break down any corrosion and spread the penetrating oil further down the tread.

Cheers Spike
 
So yesterday ...

having replaced one wish bone durning the summer , I thought, having reviewed the other side and Mot adviser , it was time to replace it now ....

this is a “ family “ car and not maintained as highly as it could be , it’s looked after way better than most 15 year old cars , but we do keep a eye on the cost / reward , noting the main driver is 17 years old , short journeys etc

The 1st time / one was easy 2 hour job , in July , yesterdays efforts was around 5 hours of bloody effect , bashed fingers and freezing cold on the drive
First time was a warm summers day ,already had the car in axel stands , and plenty of W.D.40 sprayed over the key bits for a week or so ... wish bone just popped out with a gently steady effort from a pry bar

yesterday...... the rear of the wish bone was total stuck in the rubber mounting , I ended up breaking out the angle grinder , and impact gun to cut a slot on the arm close to the rear “” pin , and inpact the arm out off the Bush . This was only the start of the fun , the track rod end also refused to play fair, along with the ball joint , however the car now in bits and there on going back .

auto doc also sent the wrong track rod end set the day up

no amount of effect would get the new arm into the rear Bush , silicone spray , pry bars , G clamp , ranting , rage .... you get the picture..3 hours later .... I was about ready to give up

so ended up removing the consul , which was “simple “ , all the bolts came out out without a struggle , the new wish bone was pushed in just using my body weight and the whole lot bolted up , noting the marking , to the car in less than a hour

as always , working on a A2 can give you a hard time .....

I can only conclude yesterday cold weather really makes the rubber stiff , and this side have never been off , the other side appears to have been replaced with a patten part in the past , no Audi logo noted etc

reviewing all of the both , I would suggest , try the consul on the car method , but be prepared to remove the consul

no photos folks , it was all rather rush before to storm
 

Skipton01

Well-Known Member
So, what was it that Menno said above? Don't worry too much!

Things didn't go too well today. Been out on the car from 10am till 6pm and got one side done. Dennis (the storm), was quite kind though, so I cracked on as best I could.

The bolt, the troublesome one that strips threads in the alloy bracket, well it decided to play a new trick on me. It snapped. Yes, I managed to shear off a 10.9 high tensile bolt so I had no choice to remove the bracket from the subframe. And in doing so, the top ARB bracket bolt also snapped off. So, it was driveshaft out, track rod off, ball joint removed and then cut the ARB bracket with the trusty Dremel and then wiggle out the old wishbone and alloy bracket.

Take into Skipton workshop and first thing was to cut off the remaining wishbone arm to the front bush, so I could get the bush off and then get to the sheared off bolt.

10 mins of angle grinder action later, the bolt end was revealed. Flip over, press out the back of the wishbone, very easy to do with a standard puller.

Then it was grind down the sheared bolt to be flush with the alloy bracket, centre punch and drill a pilot in the middle of the bolt. Fine - 3mm hole drilled and then the b****r goes and snaps off in the bolt. As the drill bit is ultra hard, I then had to drill 2 more holes either side of it, so I could get needle nose pliers in to pull the snapped bit out.

Next up, widen the hole out gradually to 10mm at which point the remaining bolt material started to unwind from the threads and then it was a simple 2 pass with a tap. Nice clean threads revealed and no need for helicoils which is good.

Then, grind off the remaining ARB bracket and tap out the remaining bolt - a job made easy as the bolt was super hot from grinding and the hole it passes through is not threaded.

Tool from ebay worked like a charm to press out the old trailing bush and press in the new one. Clean up all the bores with a wire brush on the trusty Dremel, liberal dosing of copper grease and then it was re-assemble onto Tank.

I've got 2 new alloy brackets on order as next time the job is needing to be done, I know that I'll need them. I'll also pick up a new ARB bracket on Monday - it's secured by a split bracket on the OSF at the moment, which will be fine for the time being.

Everything went back with copper grease liberally applied, wheel is now nicely centred again in the arch and the good news for the NSF wishbone is that it's in much better condition than the other side, so that one will be replaced when the weather is a bit better and there's longer daylight too.

No photos I'm afraid, as between the rain and the grease, my hands were in no state to get around the camera.
 

Joga

A2OC Donor
Sounds like a very good job done then.
But why do you feel you need new alloy brackets? Damaged threads?
 
So, what was it that Menno said above? Don't worry too much!

Things didn't go too well today. Been out on the car from 10am till 6pm and got one side done. Dennis (the storm), was quite kind though, so I cracked on as best I could.

The bolt, the troublesome one that strips threads in the alloy bracket, well it decided to play a new trick on me. It snapped. Yes, I managed to shear off a 10.9 high tensile bolt so I had no choice to remove the bracket from the subframe. And in doing so, the top ARB bracket bolt also snapped off. So, it was driveshaft out, track rod off, ball joint removed and then cut the ARB bracket with the trusty Dremel and then wiggle out the old wishbone and alloy bracket.

Take into Skipton workshop and first thing was to cut off the remaining wishbone arm to the front bush, so I could get the bush off and then get to the sheared off bolt.

10 mins of angle grinder action later, the bolt end was revealed. Flip over, press out the back of the wishbone, very easy to do with a standard puller.

Then it was grind down the sheared bolt to be flush with the alloy bracket, centre punch and drill a pilot in the middle of the bolt. Fine - 3mm hole drilled and then the b****r goes and snaps off in the bolt. As the drill bit is ultra hard, I then had to drill 2 more holes either side of it, so I could get needle nose pliers in to pull the snapped bit out.

Next up, widen the hole out gradually to 10mm at which point the remaining bolt material started to unwind from the threads and then it was a simple 2 pass with a tap. Nice clean threads revealed and no need for helicoils which is good.

Then, grind off the remaining ARB bracket and tap out the remaining bolt - a job made easy as the bolt was super hot from grinding and the hole it passes through is not threaded.

Tool from ebay worked like a charm to press out the old trailing bush and press in the new one. Clean up all the bores with a wire brush on the trusty Dremel, liberal dosing of copper grease and then it was re-assemble onto Tank.

I've got 2 new alloy brackets on order as next time the job is needing to be done, I know that I'll need them. I'll also pick up a new ARB bracket on Monday - it's secured by a split bracket on the OSF at the moment, which will be fine for the time being.

Everything went back with copper grease liberally applied, wheel is now nicely centred again in the arch and the good news for the NSF wishbone is that it's in much better condition than the other side, so that one will be replaced when the weather is a bit better and there's longer daylight too.

No photos I'm afraid, as between the rain and the grease, my hands were in no state to get around the camera.
What a nightmare 😩 ...it’s always the way usually when you think it’s a straightforward job it bites you on the bum ...glad to hear copper grease has gone back on 👍
 

Skipton01

Well-Known Member
Copper grease on everything - including I now recall, the drive shaft splines, when it really should be thread lock! Doh. And I really wasn't expecting a straightforward job - I knew that having been in place for 15 years, there would be some serious steel to alloy corrosion to overcome.

I've ordered 2 new brackets because they are now incredibly rare - there's only 3 of each side in the UK now and I don't think there's an aftermarket equivalent. I intend keeping the car well past the sales ban on petrol and diesel cars so it makes sense to get the parts which could take it off the road if they need replacing. The treads in the bracket seemed nice and clean once tapped out and it's taken the torque well and held, so I'm confident that the repair is sound. For the sake of £280 or therabouts, I'd like to have spares. The actual wishbones, bushes, tools and so on have only come in at £120 or so for both sides, so the money saved there is being spent on new brackets.
 

Edwrai

Member
Copper grease on everything - including I now recall, the drive shaft splines, when it really should be thread lock! Doh. And I really wasn't expecting a straightforward job - I knew that having been in place for 15 years, there would be some serious steel to alloy corrosion to overcome.

I've ordered 2 new brackets because they are now incredibly rare - there's only 3 of each side in the UK now and I don't think there's an aftermarket equivalent. I intend keeping the car well past the sales ban on petrol and diesel cars so it makes sense to get the parts which could take it off the road if they need replacing. The treads in the bracket seemed nice and clean once tapped out and it's taken the torque well and held, so I'm confident that the repair is sound. For the sake of £280 or therabouts, I'd like to have spares. The actual wishbones, bushes, tools and so on have only come in at £120 or so for both sides, so the money saved there is being spent on new brackets.
Do you have the part number for these brackets?


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Skipton01

Well-Known Member
The alloy wishbone carrier brackets are 8Z0 199 293R and 8Z0 199 294R for the left and right parts respectively. Around £145 each at the time of writing.

Those part numbers are for diesel cars only. Not sure if the overall shape is different for petrols, or if it's just the different bush which is supplied with the bracket.
 
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