Crankshaft bolt removal problems - 1.6fsi

Phil_B

Phil_B

Member
So, I have started on the replacement of my water pump belt, and haven't got very far....

I am completely unable to budge the crankshaft bolt. I have tried the starter motor trick, had my tenant apply the brakes in gear while I use a big spanner, hit the head of the bolt to shock it, soaked in in penetrating fluid and still nothing.

Does anyone have any suggestions before I bite the bullet, put the arch liner back and have the garage in Walton on Thames do it?
money unless I must. It was also another £200 form them to change the Fuel flap actuator, as the rod on mine broke even though its nice and loose. (I have a spare)
 
I had similar problem with bby bolt. @Chris Warren made up a tooth peg to lock the Flywheel through the starter hole. We then used a combo of an axle stand an extension and the biggest extension bar we had. We may have used a workshop impact gun too can't recall. An extra pair of hands to hold the extended socket onto the axle stand helped keep it square. Some are just stupid tight.

Tdi have four nice little bolts!
 
Hello @Phil_B,

Do you have a couple of pictures of your setup?
I am assuming the crank pulley is the same design as the 1.4 BBY and the access is also similar.

Do you have?
  1. Crank pully holding tool (Volkswagen Audi Belt Pulley Holder 1.4 1.6 2.0 Engines - Pin Diameter 11.5 mm) eBay £20
  2. Long breaker bar
  3. Pipe to slide over the breaker bar for extra torque
20240222_111029[1].jpg
For the best chance of success, lift the vehicle higher off the ground and secure it on axle stands to allow room to push the breaker bar from underneath the front bumper without it striking the ground. Because you will be working below the vehicle, chock the back wheels on both sides. A lot of force is necessary to undo the bolt, which might shake the car back and forth.

You may have already lowered the engine slightly at the mounting bolts to provide access through the wheel arch to the crank bolt. If you remove all of the engine mount bolts, the engine will swing somewhat under the force. If you leave the standard bolts in but near the end of their threads, you risk damage to the bolt holes. The shorter bolts can be temporarily replaced with longer bolts of the same diameter. Then you can securely lower the engine to a position where the crank pulley bolt is easily accessible and the engine is less mobile.
To support the sump, I use a trolley jack and a wooden chock, just in case.

20240222_110855[1].jpg

Access is difficult, as you will have the bumper in the way. The crank shaft pully tool is handy to have and cheap enough.

Good luck
 
Hmmm. Think I will have to get a Hold tool and try that before I pass the buck, metaphorically and literally.
Although, thinking about it, "This tool I bought" does have a bolt with a long stud on it. Where would that go? Starter motor bolt? and if so, which one?
 
I use hold tool VW3415 on both my TDi and Petrol engines. Inquisitiveness got the better of me and thought I’d check if a 1.6 fsi is different. It is.
You need VW3415 with hold pins VW3415/1 and as already advised you work under the car.
Something else I noticed that is a bit strange, there are two bolt designs with significantly different torque specifications. Bolt with a solid head 90Nm + 90 which is tight. Bolt with bored head 150Nm + 180 which is expletive tight. Both are fitted dry so are probably by now corroded. You are therefore also likely to need a long 3/4 drive breaker. As illustrated by @rotifer II
 
Hi,

I will strongly suggest the following:

1. Forget any gimmicks or workarounds. If you round the bolt, this will get expensive very quickly.
2. Get a holding tool or a universal holding tool, or a motorcycle clutch holding tool or grip the pulley with a used belt and a spanner (look it up).
3. Buy or borrow an impact gun with a proper impact socket and extension. You will have to lower the engine a bit make room.
4. You will need the impact to put it back in.

These hold for almost any crank pulley bolt and not just this one.

Evros
 
Hello,
Good advice from @Little Dog & @Evripidis.


These are a some photos I took when writing a thread on BBY 1.4 petrol timing belt replacement therefore the captions can be disregarded.

20240223_202239.jpg
The crank bolts @Little Dog described.


20240222_111208.jpg
My cheap Neilson pulley tool
The 4 pins on the tool unscrew for different holding jobs. The two outer pins are used for holding the crank pulley


20240223_191707.jpg
This image is BBY engine crank pulley, can I draw you attention to the 8 oval cut outs around the circumference. The tool pins fit into two of the holes.
The pulley can be rotated to find the best position for the holding tool.
(Captions not relevant)


20240222_110842.jpg
A different camera angle
20240222_105600.jpg
And another

Good luck @Phil_B
:)👍
 
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Phil_B said:
Hmmm. Think I will have to get a Hold tool and try that before I pass the buck, metaphorically and literally.
Although, thinking about it, "This tool I bought" does have a bolt with a long stud on it. Where would that go? Starter motor bolt? and if so, which one?
Click to expand...
The engine codes listed for this set are the later timing chain FSI engines used in the MK5 Golf and equivalent generation cars, so I’m not sure they’re the right tools for the job on the BAD engine used in the A2

The only tools you should need are the camshaft locking pins, something like these:

1726819438977.jpeg

I have Laser Tools timing set 3472, which includes these pins but also has the tools for doing TDI cambelts as well.

The Crankshaft pulley counter hold tool is needed as well, but is normally not included in ‘timing tool kits’ and needs to be purchased separately:
1726820597929.jpeg

I have Laser Tools 6658, which I use with a length of scaffold pole to get the required leverage.


The torque for the petrol crankshaft pulley bolts is 90Nm + 90 degrees for the later style of bolt (solid head) and 150Nm + 180 degrees for the earlier style of bolt (bored head)
I normaly fail to get them this this tight so leave them at 150Nm and anywhere over 90degrees. Always replace this bolt.


There is also a separate tool, used for aligning the camshafts to top dead centre, which bolts in instead of the high pressure fuel pump at the end of the cam shaft, but consensus on here is that this is not needed. I’ve never needed it either and I’ve had the belt off on my FSI three of four times with no issues.
I suspect this is only needed if the VVT adjustment mechanism or camshaft pulleys have been removed.
 
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Not a squidge or movement at all. Extension bar on 3rd axle stand, front drive locked in place in gear, rugby playing neighbour on the brake, 6 foot extension on my breaker bar.

Silly question: It's not a reverse thread is it?????!!!!!!
 
The description you have provided sound like you are doing exactly the right things.

Have you got a photo of the rig you have set up?
(Im not including the rugby player as part of the set up)

Reverse thread? Anything is possible with an FSI. But I don't think there are any reverse threads on the A2. It's worth checking though.

It's possible that if the crank bolts has been reused by a previous mechanic they may have put thread lock on the bolt.
Heating the bolt may help removal with or without the presence of thread lock but we run the risk of damaging/deforming the crank case seal.

Being so I would progress to borrowing a BIG impact wrench as @Evripidis recommended.
 
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rotifer II said:
The description you have provided sound like you are doing exactly the right things.

Have you got a photo of the rig you have set up?
(Im not including the rugby player as part of the set up)

Reverse thread? Anything is possible with an FSI. But I don't think there are any reverse threads on the A2. It's worth checking though.

It's possible that if the crank bolts has been reused by a previous mechanic they may have put thread lock on the bolt.
Heating the bolt may help removal with or without the presence of thread lock but we run the risk of damaging/deforming the crank case seal.

Being so I would progress to borrowing a BIG impact wrench as @Evripidis recommended.
Click to expand...
No not reverse thread, just ridiculously tight. I would not use heat in that area
 
I have been unable to shift this, even with an 18V Milwaukee Ugga Dugga on it for 5 minutes or more that I borrowed.
I spoke to Wheelbase in Walton on Thames and explained the situation as I had previously asked them for a quote form the work. They were appreciative of the information and said that it may be an engine out job to remove it!!
That will be expensive at garage rates. This leaves me with a dilemma. Do I buy the engine/engine and box Clackers has for sale and swap the engine myself, or give the car to Wheelbase and possibly have them do the swap if needed?
 
Hi,

If we set funding and timescale at infinity, by that I am saying if you haven't got a dead line and your happy
to invest you time and money on your A2, then I would give it a go yourself. It's a great puzzle project to exercise the mind.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

I did a 1.4 BBY engine swap this spring. It is a great hobby and very rewarding when you get a success now and again.

:)
 
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My advice:

1. Be carefeul of what you buy. Inspect everything and avoid any suspect items on the engine/box, e.g, rounded off bolts (sump, cam cover, crank, etc.), leaky pipework, broken pieces that cannot be repaired, etc. Maybe even the breaker has not noticed some of these. Also there is a legitimate interest involved in you acquiring (more and more) parts in exchange of legal tender. Inspect eveything even if you are buying items from your brother.

2. On the FSI, usually the engines are sold with the troublesome bits removed because they will bring the breakers a pretty penny and will indeed cause you a headache to transfer. These are: the lower intake manifold, injectors, flaps, potentially the catalytic converter, the mechanical fuel pump and the thermostat housing.

3. Remember that taking off the injectors will, at the very least, require new o-rings and probably retainers. Probably teflon rings as well.

4. There are two versions of the catalytic converter/manifold and they are incompatible. The 3 bolts an 4 bolts versions. Taking off the exhaust manifold bolts might be more difficult than the crank bolt and might also cause damage to the head.

5. You are probably going to have to replace/transfer the clutch as well plus release bearing, etc.

6. If you end up transfering the sump; this is also a pain to reinstall because of the two offset bolts that sit right behind the flywheel.

7. Think about the themostat housing, its o-rings and the crossover pipe (aka. death pipe), that will too probably need replacing. The o-ring at the very least.

8. Very important; you will need to invest in a crane. I am currently doing this job now and I ended up making a DIY mini-gantry crane to tackle this. So there is an additional cost for this. The engine with or without ancillaries cannot be handled by one person., especially trying to allight the gearbox.

You can try a mobile mechanic to pop in and remove the bolt. Maybe it is a job for a pneumatic gun or something more powerful. Maybe try and warm the bolt a bit with a torch. There is a chance that someone before you used loctite. Don't over do it with the torch. Also are you using impact socket and extension or the usual chrome ones? The non-impact ones will twist.

I also cannot see how taking off the engine will aid in undoing the bolt. On the contrary it will generate more work without any additional benefit.

Evros
 
Phil_B said:
I have been unable to shift this, even with an 18V Milwaukee Ugga Dugga on it for 5 minutes or more that I borrowed.
I spoke to Wheelbase in Walton on Thames and explained the situation as I had previously asked them for a quote form the work. They were appreciative of the information and said that it may be an engine out job to remove it!!
That will be expensive at garage rates. This leaves me with a dilemma. Do I buy the engine/engine and box Clackers has for sale and swap the engine myself, or give the car to Wheelbase and possibly have them do the swap if needed?
Click to expand...
Seems drastic going for an engine swap with so many issues that could throw up. I would keep trying and forget the impact guns, it need leverage so maybe get hold of 3/4inch breaker bar and long scaffold type tube. Forget trying to lock the engine through the gearbox and brake method, you need the pulley holding tool locked against the ground.
Its just physics. keep going. swearing a lot can help
 
As above it's a drastic move going for an engine swap. I've just done the same albeit on a 1.4 BBY at 90nm plus 90°. You are just round the corner from B&F Autos Hounslow.Why don't you give it to Gary, he does these all the time and labour rates are excellent,woud save you all the trouble.
 
Ok, Update time!!

Its off!
First, I borrowed a Snap on Ugga Dugga from my local garage and that didn't shift it.
So my mate with the Milwaukee came round and made a suggestion.
I dropped the engine mount and lowered the engine on a trolley jack and we hit the head of the bolt a couple of times with a big hammer then tried the Impact again. Straight off this time.
Belt and pump have now been swapped.
I also bought the pipe at the back to change. That looks like a whole world of pain to change. I know I "should" do it now....
And, it has caused another problem.
I snapped the little Y piece of pipe that is first off the expansion tank. Audi only, or can I use a different one?????

Then I have to contemplate changing the vacuum actuator for the Fsi flaps. Another job that could have been SO easy if Audi had made it fit ever so slightly differently. That's a manifold off job by the looks of it......

Also, the timing kit didn't come with the crank shaft bolt, but all the others. Does that need changing too? The kit was from INA, so a good quality kit.
 
Phil_B said:
Ok, Update time!!

Its off!
First, I borrowed a Snap on Ugga Dugga from my local garage and that didn't shift it.
So my mate with the Milwaukee came round and made a suggestion.
I dropped the engine mount and lowered the engine on a trolley jack and we hit the head of the bolt a couple of times with a big hammer then tried the Impact again. Straight off this time.
Belt and pump have now been swapped.
I also bought the pipe at the back to change. That looks like a whole world of pain to change. I know I "should" do it now....
And, it has caused another problem.
I snapped the little Y piece of pipe that is first off the expansion tank. Audi only, or can I use a different one?????

Then I have to contemplate changing the vacuum actuator for the Fsi flaps. Another job that could have been SO easy if Audi had made it fit ever so slightly differently. That's a manifold off job by the looks of it......

Also, the timing kit didn't come with the crank shaft bolt, but all the others. Does that need changing too? The kit was from INA, so a good quality kit.
Click to expand...
Well done for persistence.

The coolant 'Y' piece is still available either dealer or if you can wait try Autodoc. Part no. is I think 15 on this link;

Coolant pumpCoolant cooling system 1.6ltr. Audi A2 (A2) 2003 year Audi EUROPA 121040

Coolant pumpCoolant cooling system 1.6ltr. Audi A2 (A2) 2003 year Audi EUROPA 121040 spare parts
audi.7zap.com audi.7zap.com

Yes rear coolant pipe is an inlet manifold off job so do that when you do the flap actuator. Both inlet manifold gaskets are on Autodoc too.

Crank bolt should be changed and available at main dealer for around a fiver
 
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