Do you want an electric A2?

DJ 190

A2OC Donor
Dordrecht (110 km single trip) is well out of reach. While you are in Dordrecht, you are very welcome to come to Valkenswaard and test drive the A2e.


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Yes, I'd really like to do that .... it's 106 km /1hr 10 min via the A16/A58. There's going to be a day when my Partner's having a "Ladies only" get-together, so I'd really appreciate your offer to let me visit. Thank you, Peter.

David
 

Peter

Member
I have written a program to select data from my CANbus-logfile. I have logged a 20 seconds drive, producing some 9.000 (!) CAN-messages with 14 different message_IDs. Two message_IDs have no data at all; maybe a watchdog ("I'm alive"). On the CANbus it is not clear who sends a message - all units just send messages they assume relevant to other units and each unit monitors the bus and processes information relevant for itself.

My program allows me to filter a certain message_ID. Ist then removes any duplicate messages and displays them on screen or write them to a file. I can also search for specific values in a certain databyte (most messages carry 8 bytes of data). Larger numbers are represented by 2 bytes and the program calculates those 4 numbers as well. It handles data in decimal or hexadecimal format (the logger allows to select either format).

Analysing the messages with ID 0x1A0 (decimal 416) shows rpm in bytes 2 and 3. Importing the message-file in Excel allows me to display the rpm over time (160...180 sec): accelerating, coasting and braking. Many more numbers to crunch, but there is a start...
Naamloos.png
 
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Jeetesh

Member
If you really want an electric A2 - you can currently buy one in Bavaria...
Electric A2 in Rehau
I would indeed like an electric A2 and brilliant there are some conversions out there.

I have range anxiety and whilst I’m not power mad when it comes to an A2, I like the idea that some electric cars have high bhp figures and decent acceleration.

In my mind 38bhp and a range of 80-120km is in the low side especially for €22k, probably excluding donor car too (unless I misread).

If I ever found a written off (or a highly depreciated) e-UP (81bhp and better range) and could do a drivetrain swap then this would be ideal. Even better would be a golf-e @ 134bhp drive train swap that would make my perfect electric A2.

Until then I’ll stick to fossil fuel and keep watching this thread as I find it thoroughly fascinating and one day it might become more financially viable.
 

Peter

Member
The offer is for a complete A2, converted in 2013.

Let's be clear about one thing: you will not find a 200 km range in a converted A2 (for the foreseeable future that is).

Driving 100 km typically requires 15 kWh - a battery pack containing this amount of energy will weigh appr 200 kg (for LiFePO4 technology). That is about the maximum you can lug around in an A2 (and still have a practical car that carries up to four people).

Improvement is only to be expected in battery technology (motor and controller are very efficient already). Modern chemistry may reduce the weight of 15 kWh to 150 kg but even then, a 250 km range will require appr 40 kWh / 375 kg.

You may want to check the weight of the e-Golf's drivetrain (my guess would be 500+ kg) or even that of the e-Up! (I guess 400 kg).

While 22k (even in Euros) is quite a sum for an A2, the cost of components required for a conversion amounts to about that number (all labour, testing ignored). But at half the asking price, I wouldn't hesitate. The seller may have learnt in recent weeks that 22k is unrealistic...
 

Jeetesh

Member
The offer is for a complete A2, converted in 2013.

Let's be clear about one thing: you will not find a 200 km range in a converted A2 (for the foreseeable future that is).

Driving 100 km typically requires 15 kWh - a battery pack containing this amount of energy will weigh appr 200 kg (for LiFePO4 technology). That is about the maximum you can lug around in an A2 (and still have a practical car that carries up to four people).

Improvement is only to be expected in battery technology (motor and controller are very efficient already). Modern chemistry may reduce the weight of 15 kWh to 150 kg but even then, a 250 km range will require appr 40 kWh / 375 kg.

You may want to check the weight of the e-Golf's drivetrain (my guess would be 500+ kg) or even that of the e-Up! (I guess 400 kg).

While 22k (even in Euros) is quite a sum for an A2, the cost of components required for a conversion amounts to about that number (all labour, testing ignored). But at half the asking price, I wouldn't hesitate. The seller may have learnt in recent weeks that 22k is unrealistic...
Agreed, 200km in a converted A2 will be unlikely, hopefully battery technology will get better, lighter and cheaper to allow an electric A2 to become more viable.

I have seen used Tesla batteries being sold which might potentially be an option to increase the amount of kWH of storage, being Lithium ion they’ll be smaller and lighter however even used ones are very expensive.

I saw a website which converts or supplies parts for you to convert classic cars to electric
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/
At this point I began dreaming of what might be possible in years to come.

I’ll keep an eye on threads like these as I’d love to own an electric A2 some day.
 

Pinkythelabrat

A2OC Donor
The best approach for a conversion with a view on improved range would perhaps be a serial hybrid. That would allow a relatively small battery supplemented by a lightweight genset powered by some chemical fuel source.

A nice miniature turbine generator or a two cylinder four stroke 50kw mini engine have both been put forward as options for OEM in the last couple of years. Much higher efficiency as they always run at the optimum -no need for changes in demand to take them out of the best range.

A nice A2 conversion with 30-40miles of battery only range for the shops and back and most commutes with a back up ethanol or bio-diesel generator for the longer runs.

Sorted.


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Jeetesh

Member
The best approach for a conversion with a view on improved range would perhaps be a serial hybrid. That would allow a relatively small battery supplemented by a lightweight genset powered by some chemical fuel source.

A nice miniature turbine generator or a two cylinder four stroke 50kw mini engine have both been put forward as options for OEM in the last couple of years. Much higher efficiency as they always run at the optimum -no need for changes in demand to take them out of the best range.

A nice A2 conversion with 30-40miles of battery only range for the shops and back and most commutes with a back up ethanol or bio-diesel generator for the longer runs.

Sorted.


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You mean like this:


interesting.
 

Pinkythelabrat

A2OC Donor
Yup. There were two micro hybrid models up - the Delta and Bladon.

Bladon appears to have gone on to make generators which are a bit bigger and power cell towers.

I think it was maybe Meyle or similar who had produced a concept lightweight two cylinder engine that could be mounted any way up and had very little noise or vibration and amazing efficiency.

I do like the little MiTRE from Delta.




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Jeetesh

Member
Yup. There were two micro hybrid models up - the Delta and Bladon.

Bladon appears to have gone on to make generators which are a bit bigger and power cell towers.

I think it was maybe Meyle or similar who had produced a concept lightweight two cylinder engine that could be mounted any way up and had very little noise or vibration and amazing efficiency.

I do like the little MiTRE from Delta.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup. There were two micro hybrid models up - the Delta and Bladon.

Bladon appears to have gone on to make generators which are a bit bigger and power cell towers.

I think it was maybe Meyle or similar who had produced a concept lightweight two cylinder engine that could be mounted any way up and had very little noise or vibration and amazing efficiency.

I do like the little MiTRE from Delta.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MiTRE - wholly agree it’s a brilliant little thing and a proper toy. Didn’t Top Gear or some other car show attach a turbine to a bike??
 

Peter

Member
The MiTRE would indeed be a great enhancement to an electric A2 - if it were for sale at GBP 1,000 I'd get one. Assuming the extender produces 15 kW 3-phase power, I would need two extra chargers. But that is always useful as it allows faster charging using a cable as well.
You could even install it in a small trailer...
 

ashley7715

Member
Tesla battery pack is the way to go I think and becoming more and more reasonably priced as time goes on. When the model 3's come off the three year lease/HP agremments I'd imagine there will be a flood of them to the market that should bring the price to nearly affordable.

90kWh 16 modules in total I think an A2 would be good with half thats 45kWh.
or
$1600 per 6.2Kwh module weighing in at 27.3 Kgs per module
and
Tesla model 3 battery packs seem slightly more efficient but only 4 larger modules

Would love to see an EV kit for the a2.
 

Jeetesh

Member
Already mentioned and now available.
107hp Electric crate motor from Swindon Powertrains at £6400 + VAT (20% in the UK).
I know nothing about electric motors but 50kg sounds light. We have to sort the battery packs, but electric A2 conversions at a realistic price, with usable range are slowly becoming a reality.
107hp of instant torque in an A2 sounds fun too :)
Interesting read however the thing that caught my eye was the intended uses of which one is a golf cart. Just imagine a 107bhp golf cart!!
 

Peter

Member
The 80 kW sounds like fun, but motor alone is 7.5k, add a battery pack say another 7.5k (30 kWh) and various bits and bobs (drive shafts, fuses, cabling, airco, heater, CAN-simulator, bespoke battery box and mounting brackets, ...) another 3..4k and of course a donor car at 2..3k. That's over 20k for an electric A2! OK, it will be a very fast A2 :cool: and indeed, it will have a 150 mile range (as long as you don't use the 80 kW too often).

Tesla modules are only 24 Volts, so you need quite a few of them for a practical solution. Remember Watts = Voltage x Amps. The 80,000 Watts require either high voltage (18 Tesla modules / 400 Volts @ 200 Amps) or very high currents (800 Amps @ 100 volts / 4 Tesla modules).

In my A2e I have now replaced 24 cells of the battery pack - a few more than expected and roughly a quarter of the battery pack. Total cost of the car (purchase, transport, registration and battery cells) is now GBP 7k (€ 8.5k).
I only have 37 kW max and a 70 mile range (in summer) but I can live with that - I use a petrol car when needed. Insurance is € 25 a month, I pay no taxes and use mostly electricity from my solar panels. Can't drive an A2 much cheaper than this.

I replaced the ugly aftermarket radio with an Audi Concert 2 unit and designed my own BMS-reporting unit (Arduino microcontroller with 3.5" screen). It shows actual current, voltage and kW, the battery capacity in % and in Ah used. The blue area is used to display weakest / strongest cells, battery box temperature and individual ceIl's voltages upon request.
The unit is still below the ashtray waiting to be boxed and mounted near the standard instrument panel, but it works a treat.

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4markowen

New Member
Figured I'd throw my two cents in.

I'm looking at a more DIY EV conversion route. I'd suggest having a look at the openinverter.org forums. Their plan is to use OEM parts from other makes and use them instead. Plan is a 200+ mi conversion for most cars £7k ish. If you're interested in EVs conversions it's place you should stop by.

I've a 1.6 FSI sport, with numerous things needing doing to it. Cam and clutch for a start, it has a misfire, which can be anywhere between cleaning an earthing point through to changing everything and still not fixing it. Has an oil leak which I think is the breather valve. \

Was purchased for a short period when in between cars and plans, as has everyones have changed, was doing 24k miles a year but now WFH fortunately.

Personally I'm looking at using the MGR motor off a Lexus, an electric powered rear diff (c. £200) about 50kW peak, with a Prius Gen 3 inverter to drive it (c. £150) the boards to drive the inverter and BMS around £700, then the choice of batteries which is currently a BMW Hybrid pack for c. 10kWh so about 40 miles ish, which is more than what is does in a week at present, which there's a group buy going on for about £600 for a pack. Need to sort the charging out though, but that front service flap is just begging for a socket behind it.

So a potentially cheap conversion, aim would be £3k, aside from having to learn about high voltage electrics, three phase motor control, tools, and more.

The more opulent thinking I've been doing...

I've also done some napkin math and drawings for LG Chem modules at ZeroEV, which I believe are out of an iPace, and think you could get 62.4kWh in at a push. Although that's 24 modules at £500 a pop, so £12k. Figure you could squeeze 8 under the rear seats, 8 more under the boot, 8 under the bonnet. Matches the space better than a tesla module so can squeeze more power in.

Would also need a larger motor for the extra weight. Which would likely be a Prius front transaxle. There's motors to fit the gearbox, but I can't help but think it should be direct driven as a more elegant solution. Which I think is more befitting of an A2.

I'm still a long way off touching the car yet. Want all those OEM bits working on a bench first, map/sniff the CAN, all before that. Also need to buy them first :)
 

Birchall

Dick Chown Award 2016
VERY interesting, it sounds like you have done the “feasibility study” well.

I look forward to hearing this progress.

well done !!

Steve B
 
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