Do you want an electric A2?

Just recycling the openinverter.org link I shared.

They're organising a group buy of BMW hybrid batteries at the moment, although haven't seen an update on that buy. Their aim is to get them for c. €50 per kWh, in packs of around 5/6 modules (3/5/7 series hybrids) with roughly 8-10 kWh per pack. So really competitive. Given the voltages you'd be looking at paralleling them in those groups and then finding space for them. same as the video above with the leaf batteries.

Personally, some reverse measurements from http://ev-a2.blogspot.com I'd love to use the LG Chem modules out of an iPace, as there's less wasted space, so it's not empty space but more full of battery. Figure you could easily hit +250miles with them. A pack is £15k on eBay though.

I'll keep an eye on the Leaf transplant. Looks interesting.

The above conversion with a DC motor is quite old now, there's more of a shift to AC motors, and as you'll find behind the above link, a fair few hybrid options now that could potentially be put to use, using second hand parts. Reduce, reuse, recycle.

Lexus MGR, rear electric diff should manage motorway speeds. Prius transaxle, so where the petrol engine feeds its power into, but without the engine and the Leaf are more powerful options.

Their aim is to get a decent conversion for around €5000 euros pretty much to the above spec using OEM parts and getting them to talk to each other.
 
55Stars said:
Range should be approximately the same as the donor Leaf - it's the 30kWh so 150 ish
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The Leaf is a heavy car, so I expect an electric A2, even with the batteries, might be 2/3 of its weight. This should definately help range, although I'd say you'll be doing well to get 150 miles. Realistic range of a Leaf 30 is 120 and 160 miles for a 40kWh. Bear in mind that on a cold, windy day you'll get significantly less.....
 
I'm still at the research stage and have been looking at the numerous EV conversions in mainland Europe. So far identified 20 dating from 2010.

What has so far been a key issue is weight. Most EVs I've so far researched have set the max weight of the batteries in an A2 at c200kg. One has to then add the EV motor and controllers etc and subtract the weight of the ICE engine, exhaust, fuel tank. Result is that the EV is heavier (guestimate +300kg) and this then requires (in some countries mandates) higher performance braking systems with disks all round and better suspension.

200kg in 2010 gave c23kWh and a range of typically 60 miles (I guess this is best summer range - winter can be 2/3 of this). 60 miles is OK for short journeys and home charging. So far, all the EVs I've analysed have a low (3.3kw or 7.2kw) charging rate. More recent conversions are 120 mile or so range - again probably summer town or mixed driving.

6 Tesla battery modules weigh about 200kg and gives 32kWh and about 128 miles of range (a Tesla has 16 modules and gives 85kWh and weighs 540kg).

Where I've seen recent costs it has been £20k-£25k for the parts. Most I've so far analysed have been converted by the owner, so labour is free but they sometimes a year or many years to complete the job. For £20k, from an economic point of view it make more sense to wait until 2021 and spend £25k on an ID.3 Pure (45kWh and 100kW rapid charge rate with 150 miles summer motorway and 120 winter motorway range). An ID.3 Pure weighs 1625 kg cf 1030 kg with an ICE A2. https://ev-database.uk/car/1127/Volkswagen-ID3-Pure

If we presume that the ID.3 battery technology is as good as the Tesla (capacity and density) then the 45kWh battery will weigh c280kg. This maybe too much for the A2 space frame, suspension and braking system. - I would like to be proved wrong! It would also mean the loss of some boot space (existing A2 conversions with 200kg batteries have utilised the space taken by the fuel tank and the lower boot floor).
 
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4markowen said:
Just recycling the openinverter.org link I shared.
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I'll keep an eye on the Leaf transplant. Looks interesting.
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Their aim is to get a decent conversion for around €5000 euros pretty much to the above spec using OEM parts and getting them to talk to each other.
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Thanks for that link Mark. A conversion for around €5000 euros would be incredible compared to the other conversions I've seen of £20k+ for the parts alone (batteries £9k, modern light motor £9k + on-board charger / converter + battery management system + cabin heater + upgrade to brakes and suspension + fabrication of engine mounts and battery boxes + battery cooling/heating system + CAN bus interface + tools to update and configure the onboard software). It all adds up and then any labour if some jobs are beyond the amateur.

e.g. see https://zero-ev.co.uk/electric-vehicle-conversion-kits/ " Prior to contacting us in regards to one off conversions please be aware that the average parts cost is currently in the region of £25,000+"

I've read there can be issues with the Leaf batteries as they are air cooled. The trend seems to be to water cooled and this needs a cooling system to cool in summer and heat the batteries in winter to at least 5 degrees before the vehicle can start).
 
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I saw a tweet this week, I think from the Irish guy who EV converts BMWs. Apparently the Toyota Prius(?) 150bhp EV drive unit typically sells for £190 and doesn't weigh much.
I think that's enough power. Shove all of the electronics, HVAC system, 12v battery, etc. under the bonnet with a Type-2 charging socket behind the front grille flap and battery in the boot. The tricky part is a cooling system for the battery for DC charging, where I'd put the plug under the normal filler flap.
I've currently got an i3 BEV that I'm selling as I've converted to TDi90. i3 18.8kwh (useable) battery weighed about 200kg, the recent 38kwh battery weighs about 250kg.
 
Better to use the fuel flap location for charging. Open the service flap and the bonnet can be removed / stolen plus then the goodies in the "engine" bay
 
Not knocking electric vehicles, but the reality is many many people do not have off street parking , a garage or even a regular parking spot on the street. It is for these reasons a self charging hybrid would be a far more practical solution. Many of our industrial towns and cities have no way of setting up an infrastructure capable of charging electric vehicles without major redevelopment. I can hear the ambulance chasing law firms now lining up to sue the owner who had to run and extension lead out the house, over the pavement and across the road to charge their car.
 
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audifan said:
Not knocking electric vehicles, but the reality is many many people do not have off street parking , a garage or even a regular parking spot on the street. It is for these reasons a self charging hybrid would be a far more practical solution. Many of our industrial towns and cities have no way of setting up an infrastructure capable of charging electric vehicles without major redevelopement. I can hear tha ambulance chasing law firms now lining up to sue the owner who had to run and extension lead out the house, over the pavement and across the road to charge their car.
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It's a tired old (false) argument against EVs.
Major redevelopment is not necessary because you can't just build a billion electric vehicles in a month. There are 3 times as many charging locations as there were a year ago.
Yes, until the charging infrastructure is there for all of us, we can't all have an electric car, but it's not a binary situation that changes overnight and current levels of vehicle ownership are not sustainable in the near future anyway.
Self-charging hybrids aren't a thing the term has been outlawed in some countries, they are just hybrids, marginally more efficient at burning fossil fuel for travel. The hybrid i3 typically returns about 40mpg if you are using the engine.
Running a cable across a pavement is illegal.
Your comments don't seem to add anything of relevance to the thread?
 
sunsurfer said:
I reckon, for us to get a bullet proof working example at a reasonable price, we need to do a group buy and perhaps a group conversion.

Original email in this thread said:
If you want your car converted what is the best way to do it? Personally I feel we shouldn't attempt to do this individually as we will end up with a lot of multiple solutions, multiple prices and (multiple x 10) issues and problems.

My suggestion is we draw up a minimum specification and then look around to see who can do this. It may make sense for us to approach an classic car electric conversion company with a waiting list of 10-20 members (am I being optimistic?) as from the company point of view they create a solution for one car and then scale up to fit the other 9-19 cars plus probable repeat business. Also this is not just about the motor but everything must work including heating/AC and powered windows/sunroofs etc.

So my personal minimum specification is:
Range = 150-200 real miles
Top speed = 90mph - obviously only ever used on private tracks and roads ;)
Price = £5000 (this might be ridiculously optimistic but it has to compete with a new used Nissan Leaf or BMW i3)
Space and weight = not take up too much of the boot space (could the battery fit underfloor?) or weigh too much

What do you think? Does it make sense to try and do a single electric conversion solution? What are your minimum specifications?
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i3 batteries have not degraded much at all due to the buffers at top and bottom of capacity and the system that keeps the battery at the right temperature. 96 cells.
Leaf batteries... not so much.
 
No you are missing my point and twisting it around. Yes there are more charging points becoming available. I do not have a driveway or garage and have to park wherever I can. There is no way I could have a charging point near my car or for that matter neither could 90% of the people where I live. So am I going to drive 7 miles to the supermarket to charge my car in the 4 charging bays. No. Would I like to have an electric YES.
 
audifan said:
No you are missing my point and twisting it around. Yes there are more charging points becoming available. I do not have a driveway or garage and have to park wherever I can. There is no way I could have a charging point near my car or for that matter neither could 90% of the people where I live. So am I going to drive 7 miles to the supermarket to charge my car in the 4 charging bays. No. Would I like to have an electric YES.
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What I think is the game changer is that newer EVs have rapid charging and larger capacity. For example, the VW ID.3 Pro S can charge at 100kW and in 31 minutes will add 200 mile of range (I think this is 80% charged as 80% is the typical maximum charge at the rapid rate). 31 mins is time for a coffee and loo break. 200 miles is 3 hours driving - enough to the next break. Plus new charging stations are rapidly increasing.

For many people 200 miles is a week's driving (10k pa). Supermarkets are offering free charging at (I think) 11kW so while doing the weekly shop one can top up 33 miles for free. Tesla's can charge at 150kw and can add 200 miles of range in 24 minutes.

If I bought a modern EV now the only reason I can think to add a home charger is to use my free PV (I'm retired so at home most days when/if the sun is shining) but I've yet to see if that is even worth while (might be better to use the PV to heat water).

OK, it may not be as quick as refuelling an ICE but it is much more useable than EV cars up until fairly recently and things are bound to improve even more. Let's see what Elon Mus has to say on 22 September (Battery Day).
 
A possible solution but PWC certainly did not check around here there is not 84% with off road parking, there is more than 90% WITHOUT off street parking. It is really annoying when these big companies make these claims that are nothing short of lies. anyway I have put my point over and rather than swerve this discussion I'll bow now out with no further comments.
 
Alan_uk said:
So far, all the EVs I've analysed have a low (3.3kw or 7.2kw) charging rate.
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Most EV's have a rapid charging method, CCS, Chademo (Nissan/Peugot) or SuC (Tesla). The only models without rapid charging are Renault Kangoo (2017), Renault Zoe R110 (2018), Mercedes B250e (2015) and Smart EV's:


Fast charging, especially if it is the only means of charging, will lead to reduced battery life, particularly when battery cooling is not present.

RAB
 
I don’t believe that it is actually illegal to trail a cable across a public street.

Unwise perhaps and leaving you potentially liable for any harm that befalls someone as a result of your cable - although I think there is also some measure of uncertainty there as you would likely need to be shown to have been negligent in some way. Given all the ambulance chasing I don’t think it’s a good idea though.

A possible option if you can reasonably park near the front of your house often might be to ask your local council for permission to chase a narrow channel between your property and the road which could carry a cable and be covered with a trunking. I don’t know how acceptable that would be to some councils but it would avoid most of the hazard. People tripping on cables in the gutter is a different issue of course...

I personally love the idea of an EV but can sometimes do 250miles in a day and my usual commute is 70 miles and I have no garage or driveway. A serial hybrid seems the best option - or two cars. Fingers crossed a lot of these issues are resolved as numbers increase. Replaceable battery packs have been tried in Japan for example - a full ‘charge’ in 5 minutes and about 300 miles of range!

An A2 conversion sounds like an epic and fun project and one I am keen to explore over the next 5-10 years.

Ps. ‘Irish guy’ is Damian Maguire. Watch his YouTube videos at 1.3 speed minimum though


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RAB said:
No, never! If it's not illegal, it should be! It could be caught by a passing vehicle. Across a path (maybe that's what you meant) is OK and this explains how to do it:

www.hants.gov.uk

Electric vehicle charging – guidance for residents

Guidance on how to safely charge your electric vehicle.
www.hants.gov.uk www.hants.gov.uk

RAB
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Yup. I only meant a pavement path. Not a carriageway.

Across a road you’d need some kind of protective carrier for the cables - like those hard plastic ramps used for temporary events and I imagine that is likely to be more challenging to justify for charging your car!


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Pinkythelabrat said:
I don’t believe that it is actually illegal to trail a cable across a public street.

Unwise perhaps and leaving you potentially liable for any harm that befalls someone as a result of your cable - although I think there is also some measure of uncertainty there as you would likely need to be shown to have been negligent in some way. Given all the ambulance chasing I don’t think it’s a good idea though.

A possible option if you can reasonably park near the front of your house often might be to ask your local council for permission to chase a narrow channel between your property and the road which could carry a cable and be covered with a trunking. I don’t know how acceptable that would be to some councils but it would avoid most of the hazard. People tripping on cables in the gutter is a different issue of course...

I personally love the idea of an EV but can sometimes do 250miles in a day and my usual commute is 70 miles and I have no garage or driveway. A serial hybrid seems the best option - or two cars. Fingers crossed a lot of these issues are resolved as numbers increase. Replaceable battery packs have been tried in Japan for example - a full ‘charge’ in 5 minutes and about 300 miles of range!

An A2 conversion sounds like an epic and fun project and one I am keen to explore over the next 5-10 years.

Ps. ‘Irish guy’ is Damian Maguire. Watch his YouTube videos at 1.3 speed minimum though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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terrywindy1 said:
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Conceptually this is a brilliant idea, battery swap would allow you to switch out to a fully charged battery for extra range if charging facility wasn’t available however you’d just charge from a wall box if time wasn’t a factor. 3 minutes for a battery swap is as quick as filling my tank.

Clearly would only work on a car designed around that infrastructure and not anything you could convert in an A2.

I’m still going to keep an eye out for a wrecked golf-e or and e-up and you could transplant all the relevant bits to make an electric A2, that would be my ideal.
 
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