FSI High coolant temperatures seen even with ProBoost ECU.

J

jaffa_jim

Member
PlasticMac said:
When we were working on the FSI lbl file, I did some engine temperature logging, as there was an error previously. I needed to get the engine temperature above 98C, and send the log to Ross-Tech. It was not easy, and I only managed to get just over 100C, and then only for a short time. I very much doubt that the engine gets to 110C very often, if at all with low engine load, and when engine load is high, the ECU lowers the engine temperature to around 85 - 90C.
I'm not denying that the pipe is a particular risk in the FSI, but I am sure the idea that the FSI engine routinely runs at 110 - 120C is a myth.
Mac.
Click to expand...
I have a 2003 1.6 FSI, which I've owned for three years (previously owned a 1.4 petrol from 2003-2020, which I sold to my dad). It has quite a few @timmus upgrades, including the colour DIS and, of course, since the car has had a death pipe incident in my ownership, which involved a job of work for my mechanic, I now keep an eye on the coolant temperature. It also has the Proboost ECU (though I held onto the original too, for completeness). I can tell you that it is frequently showing 110-112C. Now I don't know if mine is just malfunctioning and needs further work, or if it's running as it should. My understanding was that the Proboost should stop the coolant system running over 100C.
 
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jaffa_jim said:
I have a 2003 1.6 FSI, which I've owned for three years (previously owned a 1.4 petrol from 2003-2020, which I sold to my dad). It has quite a few @timmus upgrades, including the colour DIS and, of course, since the car has had a death pipe incident in my ownership, which involved a job of work for my mechanic, I now keep an eye on the coolant temperature. It also has the Proboost ECU (though I held onto the original too, for completeness). I can tell you that it is frequently showing 110-112C. Now I don't know if mine is just malfunctioning and needs further work, or if it's running as it should. My understanding was that the Proboost should stop the coolant system running over 100C.
Click to expand...
I hope you have a dodgy engine temperature sensor, or a dodgy cluster, as even if the ProBoost wasn't controlling the temperature, you should not see much above 90C on the gauge. The mechanical thermostat will/should open around 110C, and the gauge is weighted electronically to around 90C, unless something serious is going on.
You need to get it checked out urgently, because if it really is that hot, the head gasket is at risk.
VCDS scan, of measuring blocks, to monitor engine and coolant temperatures. Use FSI/BAD specific. lbl file.
If you need more info, let me know.
Mac.
 
PlasticMac said:
I hope you have a dodgy engine temperature sensor, or a dodgy cluster, as even if the ProBoost wasn't controlling the temperature, you should not see much above 90C on the gauge. The mechanical thermostat will/should open around 110C, and the gauge is weighted electronically to around 90C, unless something serious is going on.
You need to get it checked out urgently, because if it really is that hot, the head gasket is at risk.
VCDS scan, of measuring blocks, to monitor engine and coolant temperatures. Use FSI/BAD specific. lbl file.
If you need more info, let me know.
Mac.
Click to expand...
Hi Mac - thank you for your message - appreciated. Do you know the part numbers (OEM fine) for temp sensor and 'cluster'?

Where can the FSI/BAD lbl file be found so I can point my mechanic to it? Can you recommend an expert on the FSIs round South/West London Surrey?
 
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F
PlasticMac said:
I hope you have a dodgy engine temperature sensor, or a dodgy cluster, as even if the ProBoost wasn't controlling the temperature, you should not see much above 90C on the gauge. The mechanical thermostat will/should open around 110C, and the gauge is weighted electronically to around 90C, unless something serious is going on.
You need to get it checked out urgently, because if it really is that hot, the head gasket is at risk.
VCDS scan, of measuring blocks, to monitor engine and coolant temperatures. Use FSI/BAD specific. lbl file.
If you need more info, let me know.
Mac.
Click to expand...
Here are the Groups/Blocks that need to be checked:
Group 130
Block 1: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Engine Outlet (G62), Actual
Block 2: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Radiator Outlet (G83), Actual
Block 3: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Thermostat Opening State. Value Range: 0.0 to 100.0 %
Block 4:Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Fan Overrun. Value Range: ON/OFF
(NOTE: The Thermostat referred to is the electrically controlled element, not the mechanical one).
Group 131
Block 1: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Engine Outlet: (G62). Actual
Block 2: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Engine Outlet: ( G62). Setpoint
Block 3: Coolant Temperatures &
Mapped Cooling Control Radiator Outlet (G83). Actual
Block 4: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Thermostat Opening State. Value Range: 0.0 to 100.0 %
(NOTE: The Thermostat referred to is the electrically controlled element, not the mechanical one).
jaffa_jim said:
Hi Mac - thank you for your message - appreciated. Do you know the part numbers (OEM fine) for temp sensor and 'cluster'?

Where can the FSI/BAD lbl file be found so I can point my mechanic to it. Can you recommend an expert on the FSIs round South/West London Surrey?
Click to expand...
The VCDS BAD .lbl file can be downloaded via the link below.
I'd not order any bits before you know what is going on.
Is there anyone your way, on the Scan Register, (link below)?
I'd not drive far until that's done. Better safe than, well, you know ...
Mac.

FSI ECU VCDS Label File Add-In Download

Attached something never before available to my knowledge¹, a VCDS label file for the FSI ECU in English. This file can be used with all versions of VCDS, Lite (Registered or Unregistered) or Full. Prior to this point the text that appears with FSI VCDS ECU Measuring and Basic Settings groups...
www.a2oc.net www.a2oc.net

Free Scan Register

This is a register of members who generously offer free scans for other members. To arrange a free scan: 1. Click the pdf map in the footer and choose a location. 2. Cross reference the location number in the table below to identify the member. 3. Click on their username on the left, click...
www.a2oc.net www.a2oc.net
 
PlasticMac said:
When we were working on the FSI lbl file, I did some engine temperature logging, as there was an error previously. I needed to get the engine temperature above 98C, and send the log to Ross-Tech. It was not easy, and I only managed to get just over 100C, and then only for a short time. I very much doubt that the engine gets to 110C very often, if at all with low engine load, and when engine load is high, the ECU lowers the engine temperature to around 85 - 90C.
I'm not denying that the pipe is a particular risk in the FSI, but I am sure the idea that the FSI engine routinely runs at 110 - 120C is a myth.
Mac.
Click to expand...
I had VCDS plugged in on a short test drive today after doing a cambelt and water pump change, and the max temperature I saw was 113, and didn’t dip below 100. This was not particularly hard driving, and not going above third gear. This was just temp on basic measuring blocks, not with the bad lbl file if that makes a difference.
 
Indi said:
I had VCDS plugged in on a short test drive today after doing a cambelt and water pump change, and the max temperature I saw was 113, and didn’t dip below 100. This was not particularly hard driving, and not going above third gear. This was just temp on basic measuring blocks, not with the bad lbl file if that makes a difference.
Click to expand...
The new file applies to measuring blocks too. I'll run another log when I get the chance. I can't remember what the problem with the data was, when there was no FSI lbl file at all,but the text displayed was often wrong, and some data was odd iirc.
Just add the new file, with .lbl suffix, to the lable folder. Easy as that, because there no existing file to worry about.
Mac.
 
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PlasticMac said:
F

Here are the Groups/Blocks that need to be checked:
Group 130
Block 1: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Engine Outlet (G62), Actual
Block 2: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Radiator Outlet (G83), Actual
Block 3: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Thermostat Opening State. Value Range: 0.0 to 100.0 %
Block 4:Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Fan Overrun. Value Range: ON/OFF
(NOTE: The Thermostat referred to is the electrically controlled element, not the mechanical one).
Group 131
Block 1: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Engine Outlet: (G62). Actual
Block 2: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Engine Outlet: ( G62). Setpoint
Block 3: Coolant Temperatures &
Mapped Cooling Control Radiator Outlet (G83). Actual
Block 4: Coolant Temperatures & Mapped Cooling Control
Thermostat Opening State. Value Range: 0.0 to 100.0 %
(NOTE: The Thermostat referred to is the electrically controlled element, not the mechanical one).

The VCDS BAD .lbl file can be downloaded via the link below.
I'd not order any bits before you know what is going on.
Is there anyone your way, on the Scan Register, (link below)?
I'd not drive far until that's done. Better safe than, well, you know ...
Mac.

FSI ECU VCDS Label File Add-In Download

Attached something never before available to my knowledge¹, a VCDS label file for the FSI ECU in English. This file can be used with all versions of VCDS, Lite (Registered or Unregistered) or Full. Prior to this point the text that appears with FSI VCDS ECU Measuring and Basic Settings groups...
www.a2oc.net www.a2oc.net

Free Scan Register

This is a register of members who generously offer free scans for other members. To arrange a free scan: 1. Click the pdf map in the footer and choose a location. 2. Cross reference the location number in the table below to identify the member. 3. Click on their username on the left, click...
www.a2oc.net www.a2oc.net
Click to expand...
Are you looking at the temperature on the CDIS, and not the dash gauge?
I think the CDIS displays the raw engine temperature sensor data, in real time, not the weighted stress free figure in the dash.
I don't know anything about the ProBoost map, but, like you, I wouldn't expect to see 110C.
I'm assuming that measuring block data from ProBoost is as the standard map, and the blocks I've listed are correct.
What does the dash gauge show, is it steady at 90C?
Mac.
@A2Steve maybe ask ProBoost for information on the engine group and block data with the ProBoost ECU. For engine diagnostics on an FSI, they are important. Hopefully, they are the same as the OEM map.
Mac.
 
Good Evening,

I have a suggestion that I think is appropriate.

I know little about ProBoost but I too understand the coolant temperature of an FSI running ProBoost should be consistently lower than without ProBoost, say 90℃. I have always assumed, and it is an assumption, ProBoost achieves this by running with the thermostat mainly permanently open by the ECU applying current to the thermostat heating element to keep the thrrmostat wax melted resulting in a mainly permanently open thermostat.

Now what happens if the heating element fails? ProBoost loses the ability to lower temperature and it appears no ProBoost is present. The temperature sensor correctly reports the higher than "normal ProBoost" temperatures. Sound familiar? Pop in a new thermostat, (easier said than done), and everything reverts to normal ProBoost temperatures.

Some more points.

All FSI thermostat will fail with age eventually, mine did, but I expect this will produce a fault code but I am not clear from what has been said if no fault code is present or no scan has been performed.

If my assumption is correct I would expect a ProBoost run thermostat to have a shorter life span as the heating element is functional nearly all the time.

I can see that a failed thermostat heating element will result in some even higher than normal temperatures as the ECU (both ProBoost and non ProBoost standard) loses the ability to cater for high load scenarios by earlier action.

Andy
 
Andrew said:
Good Evening,

I have a suggestion that I think is appropriate.

I know little about ProBoost but I too understand the coolant temperature of an FSI running ProBoost should be consistently lower than without ProBoost, say 90℃. I have always assumed, and it is an assumption, ProBoost achieves this by running with the thermostat mainly permanently open by the ECU applying current to the thermostat heating element to keep the thrrmostat wax melted resulting in a mainly permanently open thermostat.

Now what happens if the heating element fails? ProBoost loses the ability to lower temperature and it appears no ProBoost is present. The temperature sensor correctly reports the higher than "normal ProBoost" temperatures. Sound familiar? Pop in a new thermostat, (easier said than done), and everything reverts to normal ProBoost temperatures.

Some more points.

All FSI thermostat will fail with age eventually, mine did, but I expect this will produce a fault code but I am not clear from what has been said if no fault code is present or no scan has been performed.

If my assumption is correct I would expect a ProBoost run thermostat to have a shorter life span as the heating element is functional nearly all the time.

I can see that a failed thermostat heating element will result in some even higher than normal temperatures as the ECU (both ProBoost and non ProBoost standard) loses the ability to cater for high load scenarios by earlier action.

Andy
Click to expand...
Generally, I agree, except for the suggestion that ProBoost opens the thermostat permanently, (I'm sure Andy knows, and that it's a typo). I'd assumed, (a lot of those with ProBoost), that the electrically heated element of the thermostat would only open when engine temperature reached mid eighties, otherwise engine would never warm up, which it, obviously, does!
If the heater element fails, the ECU will/should know. In the standard FSI map, it's monitored, see Group 131, and the EML will let you know. We don't know if ProBoost does so too. In my opinion, it should.
We, (well, the ProBoost users), need some detailed information about ProBoost, describing the differences in functionality, compared to the standard map. We also need an equivalent to the BAD Engine Group and Measuring Blocks summary, unless there is no difference at all to standard.
Mac
 
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PlasticMac said:
Generally, I agree, except for the suggestion that ProBoost opens the thermostat permanently, (I'm sure Andy knows, and that it's a typo). I'd assumed, (a lot of those with ProBoost), that the electrically heated element of the thermostat would only open when engine temperature reached mid eighties, otherwise engine would never warm up, which it, obviously, does!
If the heater element fails, the ECU will/should know. In the standard FSI map, it's monitored, see Group 131, and the EML will let you know. We don't know if ProBoost does so too. In my opinion, it should.
We, (well, the ProBoost users), need some detailed information about ProBoost, describing the differences in functionality, compared to the standard map. We also need an equivalent to the BAD Engine Group and Measuring Blocks summary, unless there is no difference at all to standard.
Mac
Click to expand...
Good Moring Mac,

Yes I agree but it was no typo, that's why I put in the word 'mainly' before 'permanently'. Let's just say I assume Proboost keeps the thermostat open a lot more than normal.

Andy
 
Andrew said:
Good Moring Mac,

Yes I agree but it was no typo, that's why I put in the word 'mainly' before 'permanently'. Let's just say I assume Proboost keeps the thermostat open a lot more than normal.

Andy
Click to expand...
Sorry, I see what you mean.
The more it's talked about, the more we realise that the functionality of the ProBoost is unknown. The changes to the original map must be quite extensive, the engine temperature control being a small part.
I'll PM @A2Steve, and see if he can get any information from ProBoost.
Mac.
 
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