Fuel cost : Diesel Vs Petrol?

Personally with regards to subprime, I don’t beleive a few people tossing away the keys to their homes is the catalysts for all this...<-- Someone may lose a house, but the implications were huge as more of them doing the same. Just as the other thread on Clarkson's suicide comments, someone may die but someone else has to pick up the mess.

But what I actually wanted to post back on this thread is on topic. Last night, I totally enjoyed filling up both of my cars on Shell V-Power petrol as it was cheaper than regular diesel! :)
 
O.K. ..... Firstly, what an interesting thread this has been, Eh? Now, lets say that petrol is £1.29/l and diesel is £1.40/l. Lets also say that the petrol car does 45 mpg and the diesel does 60mpg (mine does). SO, the cost of a 30l fill-up is £3.30 more .... (a pint of beer?) Now, with your diesel car you travel a further 100 miles per fill-up! You travel 7000mls a year? You have saved £170 by owning your diesel car! THEN, you have to tax your car? The road fund is only £30 ..... another £100 saved over the petrol version! O.K., the petrol IS smoother, but BOY, when "Stealth" have breathed on the diesel, it is something else! I know, because we have both a diesel and petrol A2 in the family!!
 
Humps, my idea is that this is a global financial crisis of which it’s origins can be traced directly to the US subprime mortgage farce. However on a global scale the number of subprime defaults would be next to nothing, even in the US the total number of defaults in comparison to the entire mortgage market would have been nominal in respect to the turmoil it caused. For me the real driving force was the loss of capital in the assets, and vile market gambling like CDS trading of the initial subprime loans.

In this manner, rather than somebody lose their homes and the banks retrieve devalued real estate, the banks, insurance companies and 3rd parties got caught up in a whirlwind of IOU’s due to the abhorrent nature of CDS’s thus supercharging the initial subprime losses incalculably.

Again this is just my own conclusion on things when I asked “why” all of this is why my fault, why I had to help pay and why my sons also have to pay with their futures despite being 8 and 6 years old. I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely as exact details are sketchy, purposely so imo.

As for laughing at us Diesel lads i still take solace in the fact that my weekly routine can be served with between £10 and £15 worth of fuel per week :)
 
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Automatic, you said :- "As for laughing at us Diesel lads i still take solace in the fact that my weekly routine can be served with between £10 and £15 worth of fuel per week" .... Well, you don't go very far on that ..... About 95-140 mls? I would think that, for all I have read about negative effects with diesel cars (short journeys/time for the engine to reach efficient operating temperature, etc), you would probably be far better off running a petrol car? Also, if you are urban, it might be worth considering public transport? I think I recall seeing an article (Daily Telegraph Saturday motoring section, "Honest John") where the annual mileage was discussed regarding the viability of running a petrol or a diesel car, and I think that below 7000 miles per year, a petrol-fuelled vehicle was advised? Please correct me if I am wrong in this!
 
It is a little more complicated than just a straight <7k miles and use a petrol. I do less than 4k miles a year, a diesel wouldn't get me much saving. Besides, I like my rev and don't do the sort of 50-70 accelerations that turbo'ed cars good at. I like mine quiet too, very civilised at 30/40 mph urban driving without much noise. But even if you do 5k miles a year, but if most of it on motorway or steady constant speed drive, your diesel will save you money. Although as noted, the less miles means saving is less. TDIs these days have a DPF which causes a lot of trouble for people who thought 'diesel, must be good mpg' and end up burning unnecessarily just to do the regeneration. So that's part of your consideration. DPF is almost a guaranteed trouble for my use. But this is where A2 tdi is good, no DPF, light car for acceleration so even I could benefit from it, although there isn't much in it.

On the other hand, buying a diesel to get good mpg is totally valid and you'd do that for long commutes. But you will also rapidly accumulate miles on the clock, accelerating depreciation if you bought a new car so that's also something to consider.

But overall, I'm still laughing at the v-power petrol prices. :) especially when I'm in the other car capable of single digit mpg that brings a smile to my face.
 
Hi DJ190

I’m about as urban as you can get, I don’t drive to work as there’s no parking anywhere and my home is 5 stops from my work on the tube or a 50 minute walk.

My A2 is used mostly on short runs during the week and longer on the weekend but due to the kids the routine is fairly consistent, football training, football games, kickboxing, shopping, grandparents, extra tution etc etc.

My A2’s 34 litre fuel gauge sits between half and quarter tank at all times. Don’t know the exact MPG I’m getting but at half tank the DIS says 280ish miles available, come the following week at quarter tank or just under the DIS says 100 – 120 miles left so I’d say I’m getting roughly 100 - 150 miles out of the £10 - £15 fill up – in London, start stop traffic, multiple trips short trips. (ps i think i should add that at current prices that £10 to £15 fill up equals between 7 & 10litres of fuel only)

I don’t know if that’s good or bad for an A2 (petrol or diesel) but compared to my previous car a 1.4 Mercedes A Class it’s a walk in the park. This is my first diesel car and it’s been the cheapest to run by a country mile. Then there’s the service cost, no spark plugs, no HT leads, no daft coil pack etc. And even tho it’s only a standard 75 all the petrol 1.4’s I’ve come across scatter when they spy me coming off the slip road onto a motorway :D
 
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Hi, Sorry to show my ignorance, but "DPF"? What is that? I know of particulate filters, dual-mass flywheels, etc? But Dpf? Automatic .... that fuel gauge is far from linear! I was just commenting that diesels take a fair distance to become fuel-efficient! Winter driving really affects fuel consumption, as well! (It will knock at least 10 mpg off your fuel consumption figure!) I know this by observing my "Scangauge" ..... takes a few miles before I start to see 50>55>60 mpg! Petrol cars are much quicker into their stride! You will always expect diesel cars to show higher mileages, but the engine is stonger and heavier and as long as it has been regularly lubricated, it should be good for really huge mileages! I change my oil every 10,000mls and use fully-synthetic, "Quantum" Longlife 111 oil. It is like having a compete "blood change" in your body, LOL! Now, I used to work out that I averaged 10 p.p.m. (pence per mile) So, if I paid £30 for a fill-up, then I had done almost exactly 300miles Now it is about 11 p.p.m. I wonder where it will stop? Oh, petrol in Holland at the end of September was 1,75 Euros a litre! (that's about £1.60!!) So there are worst places to be!
 
DPF = Diesel particulate filter

Based on the averages from my last 26 tanks, my 34 Litre fuel tank breaks down like this:

brimmed & vented -> off the full mark 5.1 L
off full mark -> 3/4 6.9 L (12.0 L)
3/4 -> 1/2 7.6 L (19.6 L)
1/2 -> 1/4 7.3 L (26.9 L)
1/4 -> reserve 3.4 L (30.3 L)

My pence/mile is currently 8.6 pence. As you note, if my journey was shorter, each mile would be more expensive.
 
Fuelly tells me my fuel costs are 10p/litre at my overall average of 59mpg with our current fuel costs.
 
8.6 pence per mile!! That sounds good! Do you have the "aero" mods installed on your car? Is your car "Stealthed"? Do you drive very carefully? (i.e., do you cruise along at about 60-65 mph for many motorway miles?) Do you have the lower ratio 5th gear mod? I am quite envious! Oh, I have had my car tuned to 108 BHP and have a 0.681 ratio top gear. I drive at about 70 mph, usually. (Sometimes a bit slower.) My Scanguage is usually then showing ~60 mpg. I would just be happy to regularly get back to my 10 pence per mile!
 
Humps, just seen this chart that i have attached showing comparable fuel prices across europe. How comes 90% of the nations listed have cheaper diesel than they do petrol? clearly that BBC article is talking complete and utter bobbins no??

Unleaded 95 petrol price per litre in euros October 2011 Diesel price per litre in euros October 2011

Petrol Diesel
Austria 1.35 v 1.31
Belgium 1.44 v 1.30
Czech Rep 1.32 v 1.32
Denmark 1.47 v 1.34
France 1.48 1 v 1 .30
Germany 1.49 v 1.36
Greece 1.59 v 1.40
Hungary 1.19 v 1.18
Ireland 1.50 v 1.43
Italy 1.63 v 1.52
Latvia 1.24 v 1.24
Luxembourg 1.32 v 1.18
Netherlands 1.55 v 1.32
Norway 1.78 v 1.65
Poland 1.22 v 1.20
Portugal 1.50 v 1.35
Slovakia 1.46 v 1.35
Slovenia 1.31 v 1.24
Spain 1.33 v 1.25
Sweden 1.48 v 1.53
Switzerland 1.38 v 1.40
United Kingdom 1.58 v 1.62
 
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Do you have the "aero" mods installed on your car?

I have the FSI winglets and the exhaust tunnel cover, but I haven't fitted the subframe spoiler yet (no ramps etc).

Is your car "Stealthed"?

Yes, 103hp from 79.

Do you drive very carefully? (i.e., do you cruise along at about 60-65 mph for many motorway miles?)

60 rather than 65, I use a few hypermiling techniques such as 'driving without brakes', 'driving with steady load', a bit of Pulse&Glide (not much, mostly on hills). Google the names for more info.

Do you have the lower ratio 5th gear mod?

Nope

I am quite envious! Oh, I have had my car tuned to 108 BHP and have a 0.681 ratio top gear. I drive at about 70 mph, usually. (Sometimes a bit slower.) My Scanguage is usually then showing ~60 mpg. I would just be happy to regularly get back to my 10 pence per mile!

I also have a scangauge, although I have it currently set up to display miles/litre in order to save time doing conversions when entering the data after refuelling. What settings do you have?

For reference, my settings are : DieselA, 1.4L, +3% speed factor, fast updates, miles, litres, miles/litre. HP adjust +99% (need +150%), mpg adjustment -41.7%. I would prefer to be using miles/gal rather than miles/litre.

Of the various things above, the motorway/A-road cruising speed has the biggest affect on your MPG. The mods all together only make a modest difference (a few mpg at most). Additionally, it is a good idea to run your tyres hard (say, 40/42 psi front/back), and to use narrow, high profile LRR tyres (keep an eye out for uneven wear if you are running them at nonstandard pressures). I just bought 175/65R15 wheels & alloys from a forum member, but I still need to swap them over with my current 185/60R16s.

As you already identified in an earlier posting, the journey distance is very significant for MPG, particularly in winter when the engine takes a long time to warm up. My daily commute is 27 miles in each direction, what's yours?
 
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very interesting chart! Yes, there is Luxembourg .... no wonder that as you LEAVE Luxembourg, there is a line of about a dozen filling stations coming up to the border! Just one thing to note ..... I don't know about other countries, but I do know that the Netherlands use an Annual tax system based on the type of fuel used by the vehicle! (and the engine size, too, for that matter!) SO, if you are using diesel of LPG, the tax is substantially higher than for petrol! It is the complete opposite to the U.K., where the tax is based on emissions! So when you take an LPG powered car to Holland, you are absolutely Quids in!( and to a lesser extent, a diesel car) I don't know the current price for LPG, but when I last took my LPG powered Mercedes 190 to Europe, it was only 0,65 Euro per litre! So, if you are using a vehicle running on a cheaper fuel, you pay for it with that Annual tax!
 
MikeMarsUK .... thank you so much for your response! So very interesting! Now what I don't want to get into is the scenario in that I am trying so hard to get better fuel economy that it ends up detracting from my driving pleasure! I don't want my head wrapped up with checking my speed constantly, worrying about coasting, gear-changes and other techniques? I do drive pretty sensibly, however, but have you noticed that if you drive at about 60 mph, then the whole World seems to pass you by? (nice play on words, that? LOL) Well, I mean even massive lorry's and the odd push-bike! No, how many vehicle do YOU overtake at that speed? I have tried it, but I get this voice in my left ear ... "get a xxxxx move on!" It does amaze me that with fuel the cost that it is, most cars shoot past me when I'm doing 70 mph! It can't be their own fuel they're using, then? Don't they know that the difference between a car doing 80 mph and one doing 70 mph can be a further 25% penalty in fuel consumption? I think that I am right in what I say? Now, something that I can 100% recommend to you, and I just can't fathom out why you have not done this? .... that 5th gear mod! I went for a 0.681 ratio! It is GREAT! I would imagine that my 70 mph feels just like your 60-62 mph? It is so relaxing! I think that the most noticable feature of my car (well, to me, anyway) is this ..... with THAT ratio, and with 108 bhp at my disposal, the acceleration and power from 65 mph in 5th gear is absolutely phenomenal! I really doubt that it would be the same if the typical 0.659 ratio had been fitted? Well, unfortunately, I am a perfectionist and I am very easily influenced .... everyone has their cross to bear! LOL! So, I will now be looking into fitting those Aero mods (and, of course, it will have to be ALL of them!) [I might even INVENT another one, myself! LOL!]
I hope that I can encourage you to have that 5th gear mod done, too! ..... but DO go for that 0.681 ratio ... then I won't be the sole member of that particular club! Thank you again for your input! Regards, David
 
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Now what I don't want to get into is the scenario in that I am trying so hard to get better fuel economy that it ends up detracting from my driving pleasure! I don't want my head wrapped up with checking my speed constantly, worrying about coasting, gear-changes and other techniques?
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Full hypermiling does take a considerable amount of effort, and, yes, you are constantly working.

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I do drive pretty sensibly, however, but have you noticed that if you drive at about 60 mph, then the whole World seems to pass you by? (nice play on words, that? LOL) Well, I mean even massive lorry's and the odd push-bike! No, how many vehicle do YOU overtake at that speed? I have tried it, but I get this voice in my left ear ... "get a xxxxx move on!"
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It is rare to be overtaken by an HGV since they're limited to 60 (many are limited to lower speeds). However they will be doing a true 60mph, which is a higher speed than an indicated 60mph.

I also find the 'patience' aspect of driving at 60mph to be the most difficult part. I do sometimes find myself automatically overtaking a vehicle that I'd planned to stay behind. It helps to synchronise speed with an HGV (at a safe distance of course). However, wierdly, I found that my overall journey time was hardly affected by the lower speed. The high traffic levels here slow your average speed down anyway, so removing a few peaks of top speed doesn't have much affect.

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It does amaze me that with fuel the cost that it is, most cars shoot past me when I'm doing 70 mph! It can't be their own fuel they're using, then? Don't they know that the difference between a car doing 80 mph and one doing 70 mph can be a further 25% penalty in fuel consumption? I think that I am right in what I say?
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Well, the same applies to 70 vs. 60 :D

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Now, something that I can 100% recommend to you, and I just can't fathom out why you have not done this? .... that 5th gear mod!
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I have considered it, I will probably do it in some point in the future. But I get nervous about 'permanent' changes to the car which may confuse a future owner (not that I plan to ever sell it, of course). Also, I can use 5th in the 30-40 mph range if I'm just chugging along on the flat, but if I had the 5th gear mod then I'm not sure that would still be possible. An alternative would be to go to oversized tyres (for example, 185/65R15), which would be an uplift of about 5% in all gears.

An additional aero mod which few people do is to use the spoiler from the FSI. It is better placed in aerodynamic terms than the spoiler on the other cars (but does block the rearwards view more).
 
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A couple of points which appear to have been conveniently overlooked:
- Cable (the $/£ rate) has eased since last year, quite a lot, so there's no real excuse.
- Diesel - sorry, guys, but you're one of the few where the diesel roadtax is cheaper than Petrol. Infact, I think you're the only one. Here, it's based on weight (so the tax is €300+ for the diesel and €80 for the petrol) and the litre price was cheaper to offset this is as it's a huge country (1000miles from top to bottom and 5m people - say hello to gigaliners of 25.25m). There is *no* way around using lots of fuel to haul stuff up north. Same in Germany IIRC (though there it's also based on emissions class). Oh, and if you want a DPF? Go get one, they're available from HJS for the ATL engine.
- you can blame the subprime at least partly on the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act, which stopped Investment Banks and normal ones from joining forces. It's far better explained by others than me.

However: the high oil price is a good thing IMO as it drives innovation away from oil and towards other options.

Bret
 
MikeMarsUK .... You said :- "no, it is Well, the same applies to 70 vs. 60" No, it is not linear! (I'll need to get my Science books out! LOl) Increasing your speed from 60-70 mph might cause an increase of, say, 10-12% in fuel consumption, but this rises steeply as your speed increases! Now, I have a "Votex" rear wing component to fit to my A2 and I beleive that it is unsuitable for the 1.6 FSI? I am hoping, however, that it MAY, in its own right, have an improving effect on fuel consumption (otherwise, I'm sure that I would have been looking for a 1.6 tailgate, too! LOL!).... I have 185 section tyres on 15" rims, fitted to my A2 ...... they only affect the speedo reading by less than 1% .....
bretti-kivi .... Yes, in March I was offered 0,92 Euro/£ in a currency shop in Brugge, Belgium!!!! Now, at least, that rate has improved to 1,12 Euro/£!
 
head hurting far too much after multiple xmas parties in a row, I can't work on the numbers sorry. But I'd assume someone at bbc must have done more research on their article than you and I posting a few messages based on what google says. And the bbc article priced things using UK duty and VAT so it didn't attempt to show the price differences in the rest of the world.

w.r.t. the speed vs mpg. I totally agree it is not linear. Very rarely I travel at 60mph on motorway and whenever I did, I got significantly higher mpg than my usual 70mph. And I can tell you doing 90mph uses a LOT more fuel.

I'm glad Bret sees the same thing as I do, high prices drives innovation away from oil.
 
MikeMarsUK .... You said :- "no, it is Well, the same applies to 70 vs. 60" No, it is not linear! (I'll need to get my Science books out! LOl) Increasing your speed from 60-70 mph might cause an increase of, say, 10-12% in fuel consumption, but this rises steeply as your speed increases!

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Ah, yes, but the MPG scale itself is not linear either.

If we look at the numbers for aero drag alone (note that this is ignoring rolling resistance etc):

60 -> 70 +36% (I'm not saying that your overall mpg will be increased by 36% - we're just looking at a single component here).
70 -> 80 +31%
60 -> 85 +100%

The effect is less pronounced under 55 or thereabouts because rolling resistance is a greater amount of the fuel consumption.

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I have 185 section tyres on 15" rims, fitted to my A2 ...... they only affect the speedo reading by less than 1% .....
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Yes, but what is their aspect? The point of the 185/65s is that they have a larger circumference than (say) 185/55s on the same rim.
 
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