How green are electric cars

[spike]

As opposed to Tesla chargers where only Teslas can charge? In France (or Europe) I only need a single Chargemap card which includes many networks, including Ionity.

RAB

No idea how it's going to work but Tesla seem to be opening up their charging system

Tesla expands Supercharger pilot program for non-Tesla EV owners to several more European countries

Tesla has significantly expanded its Supercharger pilot program for non-Tesla EV owners to several more European countries, including the UK and Spain. Over the last year, we have been reporting on Tesla ramping up its effort to open the Supercharger network, its extensive global network of...

electrek.co

Cheers Spike

 

[RAB]

No idea how it's going to work but Tesla seem to be opening up their charging system

Tesla expands Supercharger pilot program for non-Tesla EV owners to several more European countries

Tesla has significantly expanded its Supercharger pilot program for non-Tesla EV owners to several more European countries, including the UK and Spain. Over the last year, we have been reporting on Tesla ramping up its effort to open the Supercharger network, its extensive global network of...

electrek.co

Cheers Spike

Only since last month Spike and only 15 out of 98.

RAB

 

[RAB]

However, having read the link, it's typically overcomplicated VW rubbish. Why have 3 levels of membership, with 3 different pricing structures? Tesla has 1. What use is a 5 pence per minute blocking charge in deterring bay-blocking? Why suspend blocking fees for half the day? All this does is encourage drivers to sit on chargers all night long. Absolute drivel and until all this needless complexity and bamboozling is removed, it'll just turn drivers and potential EV owners away.

They must have got that idea from Tesla:

"Charging a non-Tesla EV at a Supercharger won’t be that cheap, though: the firm says that while prices will vary from site to site, drivers will pay £0.60 per kWh.

That’s more than double the £0.26 paid by Tesla owners, even if it’s less than the £0.69 per kWh the Ionity network charges. Non-Tesla owners will be able to pay a monthly subscription of £10.99 for reduced pricing from the trial Superchargers, however."

From: https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/6111/tesla-supercharger-network-opens-to-all-evs

RAB

 

[Skipton01]

Absolutely right as usual Spike.

Tesla have opened up 15 sites in the UK as a trial (including the huge 18-bay site at Manchester's Trafford Centre), so all CCS equipped cars can charge there, with nothing more that the Tesla app. This follows similar trials in Norway and Holland, which have been successful, but have shown that there is an issue with bay-blocking by non-Tesla EV drivers who are so used to parking and walking off for an hour or two to shop or whatever.

Being cautious and opening up 15 sites is to ensure that Tesla don't peeve their own customers by flooding superchargers with EVs from other manufacturers, and especially hybrid cars, who will sit there and block the bays. It's a wise way to roll out the facility, which they've grown and developed into what is the world's best network.

What really irks is that VW are passing other charging networks off as their own and they also confuse the hell out of people by having several pricing structures. But then they've been bamboozling people for years with their options lists.

 

[Skipton01]

They must have got that idea from Tesla:

"Charging a non-Tesla EV at a Supercharger won’t be that cheap, though: the firm says that while prices will vary from site to site, drivers will pay £0.60 per kWh.

That’s more than double the £0.26 paid by Tesla owners, even if it’s less than the £0.69 per kWh the Ionity network charges. Non-Tesla owners will be able to pay a monthly subscription of £10.99 for reduced pricing from the trial Superchargers, however."

From: https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/6111/tesla-supercharger-network-opens-to-all-evs

RAB

Don't believe all you read dear chap - especially from such a shower as CarWow. Attached are a couple of screenshots from right now, from my Tesla app showing the costs quite clearly. Costs at superchargers for Tesla drivers is not 26p and hasn't been since the last energy increase in April. It's around 47-55p, site depending. As usual, sites on the motorway network are more expensive.

If you're likely to use more than 74kW in a month, then it's worth taking out the subscription (which gives a saving of 15p per unit), so again, Tesla makes is super easy to understand.

 

[RAB]

This follows similar trials in Norway and Holland, which have been successful, but have shown that there is an issue with bay-blocking by non-Tesla EV drivers who are so used to parking and walking off for an hour or two to shop or whatever.

That's something that Tesla drivers never do? LOL. Tesla, the car equivalent of Apple, absolute control freaks! Name me another charging network that restricts car by manufacturer.

RAB

 

[Evoman]

To quote a comment from the article:

"What a stupid article. Gee, a car not driven has a smaller ecological footprint than one that is!
Why not say that a coal fired power plant that'd decommissioned has a lower footprint than a running solar plant to somehow imply that coal fired power plants are good for the environment.
The fact that this was even published shows how far comprehension has declined in the average person."

RAB

Rab

I disagree, yes the headline is just that an attention grabbing headline however the point made in the article with reference to quantified carbon emissions does just that demonstrates a point. There is a context here relevant to use. Yes daily transport comparisons are a different story. However for occasional use cherished classic car owners can continue to use their cars while not being shamed into killing the planet. I see that as the point being made. The context is carbon emissions.

As I said when I started this thread which is understandably emotive, a context of our overall impact on the planet should consider vehicles as one aspect. Our life choices all have impacts from the cars we drive daily to infrequent use of classic cars, taking flights for holidays and work, choosing the food we eat from meat to vegan, local to global. Let's not forget all these aspects and impacts.

I think being aware of these overall impacts can help influence in a positive way the choices we make. We can't all be angels but if we stop to consider the potential impact it can help. I know people who choose to take no flights abroad, grow their own vegetables, eat entirely vegan, forage for local foods, run a hybrid car sparingly and generally are hugely conscious on their impacts on the planet as individuals and have instilled this in their children. Personally I'm nowhere near this level but I do try and I am conscious of how these individual choices have an effect.

There are some carbon calculators out there that work out based on lifestyle choices the 'number of planets' you are using. Worth a look, some are fairly crude though.

 

[4markowen]

That's something that Tesla drivers never do? LOL. Tesla, the car equivalent of Apple, absolute control freaks! Name me another charging network that restricts car by manufacturer.

RAB

That why they jumped before being pushed to open up their network.

Or perhaps I'm just old and cynical these days...

 

[Skipton01]

Tesla, as a private company, wouldn’t be pushed into opening its network, but they’ve now seen a possibility to capitalise on the expanding need for reliable chargers.

As to your last comments Rab, they are quite funny but obviously bitter: Apple? Like Tesla? Nope - not a control-freak company at all, but one of the most responsive and customer-listening out there.
I get it that you’re outside the wall looking in - you want a simple, reliable and effective charging network. However, you bought into a company who just markets other networks as their own and doesn’t bother to make it better. Ever seen a Supercharger that’s out of service for more than 48 hours? Nope because they’re well maintained.
Don’t have a go at those customers who bought into Tesla, because it just strikes of jealousy and bitterness.
I went to Tesla when the time was right and they had a product which worked for me. I was also tired of the way the legacy car companies were doing things - now that’s restrictive practise! Selling upgrade packages with certain restrictions (you can have this option but you have to have this one too etc). I bought into a company who have over a decade of real world development and have the best battery and motor tech around. The most economical cars too, as well as the fastest to charge and fastest to accelerate and best handling. They also have the best charging network, so it’s win win.

You want in on the network, at the same cost as a Tesla driver? Buy a Tesla. It’s not rocket science nor is it restrictive.

 

[Skipton01]

The pre

That's something that Tesla drivers never do? LOL. Tesla, the car equivalent of Apple, absolute control freaks! Name me another charging network that restricts car by manufacturer.

RAB

The previous answer was longhand.

The short answer is show me another network developed and owned by a single manufacturer? Do that and I’ll show you another network that is restricted to a single maker too.

There isn’t one though!

 

[ds20prefecture]

I have to laugh at what began as two sides of the EV argument gently disagreeing has turned into one side fracturing into the usual Tesla vs Non-tesla flaming and violently agreeing with each other

@Evoman your post above is probably the most considered, balanced post on this thread and I applaud you.

Personally, I choose to run 2 classic cars for probably no more than 3000 miles this year and also run an EV that I charge on solar. No one would suggest that this is the "right" thing to do. It works for me because my particular blend of hard work and luck means I can afford to and have the place to. I'm happy to justify my position on both to those who would judge - i.e. my kids

If I wasn't lucky enough to be able to lease an EV I'd probably just have the A2.

 

[mtl]

and best handling.

I agree with the rest, but huh this is a little bit over the top, isn’t it? Drove Tesla model 3 and Taycan. And there is no competition there in the handling department.
And I doubt that model S can outhandle the Taycan.
Also Model 3 is crazy (to stiff suspension + large wheels) uncomfortable car, at least on our bad roads. And FYI my primary car is lowered .

 

[Skipton01]

I agree with the rest, but huh this is a little bit over the top, isn’t it? Drove Tesla model 3 and Taycan. And there is no competition there in the handling department.
And I doubt that model S can outhandle the Taycan.
Also Model 3 is crazy (to stiff suspension + large wheels) uncomfortable car, at least on our bad roads. And FYI my primary car is lowered .

Comparing like with like?

A £40k family saloon compared to a £75k sports car?

However, compare a Model3 to anything else around the same level (so Q4, EQC, iD3/4, etc) and the statement stands.

The M3 with 18" wheels is rather good I find - the added mass of the battery aids suspension which could otherwise be crashy (like the A2), but then it's not too bad road wise around Warrington.

And as to the same side of the EV debate flaming one another, I don't doubt that Rab is a secret admirer of all the things Tesla have got right, which is a very long list. Just as I admire VW for finally getting in the EV game. If Tesla weren't around, I'd doubtless have an Enyaq, over any fossil fuel car, but then the only reason the Enyaq or any other legacy manufacturer's EV is on sale today is because Tesla has shown the world that electric works and works very well.

Now all they have to do is catch up to the original and best. And doubtless, someone will do. Eventually.

 

[mtl]

Comparing like with like?

A £40k family saloon compared to a £75k sports car?

However, compare a Model3 to anything else around the same level (so Q4, EQC, iD3/4, etc) and the statement stands.

The M3 with 18" wheels is rather good I find - the added mass of the battery aids suspension which could otherwise be crashy (like the A2), but then it's not too bad road wise around Warrington.

And as to the same side of the EV debate flaming one another, I don't doubt that Rab is a secret admirer of all the things Tesla have got right, which is a very long list. Just as I admire VW for finally getting in the EV game. If Tesla weren't around, I'd doubtless have an Enyaq, over any fossil fuel car, but then the only reason the Enyaq or any other legacy manufacturer's EV is on sale today is because Tesla has shown the world that electric works and works very well.

Now all they have to do is catch up to the original and best. And doubtless, someone will do. Eventually.

Your statement was Tesla was the best. Not Model 3 was the best in class. Also I have intentionally mentioned Model S which is in similar price bracket with Taycan. Sadly I have not yet driven it, but I doubt it drives like Taycan. And Taycan is a sporty saloon, not sports car. Or is also Cayenne sports car?

One is crashy, the other one is RATHER good because or the weight. But that is faaaar from comfortable, which a 40k family saloon should have a preference over sports car suspension. Which is not even sports car, it is just firm.

 

[Rusty911]

I have to say I was a passenger (whilst my brother drove) in a Model Y at Fully Charged Farnborough this year. Whilst it was deeply impressive (especially as it was our first time in an EV at all) neither of us found it very likeable. The ride was 'SO' uncomfortable, there were quite a few trim buzzes and the seats were merely O.K. The performance was insane, but I think the novelty would wear off pretty quickly.

On the other hand, right at the end of the day we snatched a last minute drive of a Citroen C4: under 1/2 the Tesla price (£28K vs £60K I think): very, very likeable indeed. Felt very well made, comfy without being overly soft or floaty, amazing seats and generally extremely 'nice'. Just where you'd hope a legacy brand to be. Same route, same speeds etc so a perfectly good comparison. Neither of us is particularly wedded to Citroen / Stellantis btw.

Anyway ... I'm looking for a little EV to run off my solar, but the current feeding frenzy on sub £10K EV's has caused a pause for now. I'll just have to sit tight, keep my eyes open and wallet ready just in case something leaps out. In the meantime I'll use the A2 TDi for some journeys and the EBike for the others.

 

[Skipton01]

As I am not a sales person for Tesla, I will at this point bow out, safe in the knowledge that I have just about the best EV on sale at the moment, taking a wide range of criteria in to consideration and certainly the best EV for me.

It was Mark Twain who said you should never pick a fight with a pig, as you'll get dirty but the pig will enjoy it. A wise man indeed.

 

[RAB]

And as to the same side of the EV debate flaming one another, I don't doubt that Rab is a secret admirer of all the things Tesla have got right, which is a very long list.

Please don't make such assumptions. I need/needed a hatchback with reasonable range for travel to France. The nearest Tesla service point to me is 43 miles away; if I have to leave my car with VW for service, I can take my Brompton and cycle home.

RAB

 

[mtl]

Ok, got it. I am quite sad when people get overinvested in their cars and think they are the best. Sorry but again: everyone that tells me, that Model 3 is not uncomfortable is by my opinion not objective.
And I understand and respect your statement that Model 3 is the best car for you.
Regarding the best EV on sale: well, you would need to first set the criteria for that.

PS: just one info regarding Tesla and longterm (over 10 years) maintenance costs. Tesla makes changes/optimizations on all parts “on the fly”. So for example they see something does not work, they change it immediatelly and so on and so on. This si great for first owner, maybe second, etc. until this part needs replacement. Then, you will not know which part to order and probably Tesla will not have it in stock. Especially if the part becomes a major problem on many vehicles and they will run out ofvthe stock. This is quite big problem in USA with independent repairers. Not only that: there were cases when the same car had one new part and one old part installed in the suspension. Well, these are not the problems for first owner to worry about and lease is the way to go.
We all know what a problem this can be with obsolete and nonavailable parts for our A2. For now there are still scrapcars around, when this will end…
While for example legacy automakers do the changes with MY changes and some even rarer. For example Toyota: you can get parts for 15 years old cars without any problem. BMW: 40 years old cars no problem (usually). They think about aftersales support when developing the car.

 

[RAB]

Don’t have a go at those customers who bought into Tesla, because it just strikes of jealousy and bitterness.

Where did I do that? At the risk of looking foolish, you keep making statements that are simply untrue and totally unjustified. I never wanted a Tesla, they just don't have anything I want.

RAB

 

[Rusty911]

As I am not a sales person for Tesla, I will at this point bow out, safe in the knowledge that I have just about the best EV on sale at the moment, taking a wide range of criteria in to consideration and certainly the best EV for me.

It was Mark Twain who said you should never pick a fight with a pig, as you'll get dirty but the pig will enjoy it. A wise man indeed.

I certainly wasn't criticising Tesla as such, as I say, in many regards it was deeply impressive. It was more that I was struck by the fact a brand I wasn't expecting to be even halfway close was actually very, very good. As you say though, I'm sure when taken in the round (charging network, efficiency / range, manufacturing techniques) Tesla probably still wears the crown. Difference now though is that it seems to be that £ for £ overall, other choices are becoming increasingly valid.


As an aside, and I've said this before, I very much lament the lack of little, fun and cheap runabout EV's: two people, 60mph, 60 mile range, funky looks, clever design, £10-12k.