Idiot on a motorbike

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Skipton01 said:
And it could also in this instance, cause confusion. Left indicating traffic could be mistaken for wanting to turn left, as opposed to move left.

Rule 160 says that once moving you should "
  • keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to overtake, turn right or pass parked vehicles or pedestrians in the road"
So the only reason to indicate left is if you're turning, as otherwise you'd already be in the left lane, unless you're one of the increasing number of drivers who seem to think that driving a 'premium brand' car allows you to always drive in the 'fast lane'.
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Mike your being stupid, lane changing on carriageways should be accompanied by a signal, hence mirror, signal, maneuver or was I taught incorrectly and that includes all moves. I did nothing wrong at all, otherwise we will have to prosecute everyone who pulls into an empty lane of a dual carriageway from a side street or whatever.
 
craigyb said:
Mike your being stupid, lane changing on carriageways should be accompanied by a signal, hence mirror, signal, maneuver or was I taught incorrectly and that includes all moves. I did nothing wrong at all, otherwise we will have to prosecute everyone who pulls into an empty lane of a dual carriageway from a side street or whatever.
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So, I'm being stupid, by following the highway code - the rules. I think we can see your attitude - you're right, everyone else is wrong, hence the title of the thread. You've labelled the biker as an idiot, so been the judge, jury and executioner. Why not just call the thread "Was This Right?" or similar.
The business about only indicating when moving from the normal driving position, ie when pulling to the right to overtake, or turning right or left, is designed to avoid confusion. The highway code assumes and instructs that all traffic should keep to the left as quoted above. Therefore it should also be assumed that a driver will move back to the left after their overtake. If everyone signalled left and right for every move, then there'd be mass confusion, especially in the dark or inclement weather.

If you're so sure you did nothing wrong, why ask the original question?? You pulled out into the path of oncoming traffic, which had every right and possibly was in the process of moving back into the empty lane that you assumed was 'yours'. This is why someone had a go at you - I've already explained that the gap can't have been that big if the motorcycle (which you admit was not speeding) was by your open window before you realised it.
Nobody is talking about prosecuting those who pull into 'empty lanes' of traffic. However if they do it and it causes an accident, then yes, prosecute the hell out of them. It sounds like you were involved in a near miss in this case, which was perfectly avoidable by letting the traffic pass
 
You are not following the highway code though if you don't indicate when you change lane, here is the relevant section again;

7. Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)
Lane discipline

133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

So it's quite clear and no assumptions need to be made if you just indicate when you intend to change lane.
 
Michael,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but your comments read as though you haven't seen the drawing that Craig has done, which explains the road layout a little easier than text alone does.

I've no idea where the law would stand on this issue, but common sense suggests that, in this particular case, the bike rider over-reacted and the car driver performed a manoeuvre that was safe and correct at the time, considering the carriagway changes.
With the left-most lane cordoned off for road works before and after the junction, the centre lane was actually the left-most available lane at the time. Traffic approaching that junction should be aware of the changed road conditions, and be considerate to traffic wishing to enter from the minor road.
As long as a there was sufficient space for a vehicle to join the main carriagway without causing traffic to slow or change lane (move right to avoid a collision), then I don't see that Craig did anything wrong.

And, as has been said, if a completely clear carraigway (all lanes) is a legal requirement before entering it from a minor road, the dual carriagway network would surely grind to a halt.

Just my point of view, of course.

Cheers
Jeff
 
The IAM and the police driving manual, Roadcraft, do not advocate signalling when moving back in after an overtake because the rule in the UK is keep left, other motorists should know you're going to move back in.

Unfortunately, a lot of drivers see it as bad driving due to their own inability to read the road ahead and from their forgetting that the normal driving position is on the left, unless overtaking.

Moving back to the normal driving position, ie pulling back to the left, is not a 'need to change lane' - it's complying with the basic rules of the road, as I've explained before. Unfortunately, there's a lot of bad learned behaviour about. HGV drivers tend to indicate left and hope for a flash from the driver they've just overtaken (usually at around 1mph), as judging the distance is very hard for them. Car, bike and van drivers are in a much better position to judge when it's safe to move over and so don't need to signal. It's potentially confusing and not necessary.

However, this is moving away from the original question.
 
Mustang-owner said:
Michael,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but your comments read as though you haven't seen the drawing that Craig has done, which explains the road layout a little easier than text alone does.

I've no idea where the law would stand on this issue, but common sense suggests that, in this particular case, the bike rider over-reacted and the car driver performed a manoeuvre that was safe and correct at the time, considering the carriagway changes.
With the left-most lane cordoned off for road works before and after the junction, the centre lane was actually the left-most available lane at the time. Traffic approaching that junction should be aware of the changed road conditions, and be considerate to traffic wishing to enter from the minor road.
As long as a there was sufficient space for a vehicle to join the main carriagway without causing traffic to slow or change lane (move right to avoid a collision), then I don't see that Craig did anything wrong.

And, as has been said, if a completely clear carraigway (all lanes) is a legal requirement before entering it from a minor road, the dual carriagway network would surely grind to a halt.

Just my point of view, of course.

Cheers
Jeff
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No, I've seen the drawing. There is no requirement for traffic on the main road to be considerate to traffic wishing to join - unless it's very slow moving/crawling traffic, when there should be consideration given to allow traffic to filter in.

You hit the nail on the head though - sufficient space to join safely. In this case, there doesn't seem to have been, as a non-speeding motorcycle was alongside Craig's car within seconds. Common sense says that you don't pull out into oncoming traffic. What would be wrong with allowing the traffic to pass? Save a few seconds, pull out on traffic which has right of way (remember, Craig was at a give way line - the clue is in the name), cause an accident. All for the sake of saving a few seconds.

Nobody is talking about legal requirements. It's about common sense, judgement and courtesy, which the motorcyclist deemed to be lacking in Craog's manoeuvre.
 
The IAM do not advocate signalling when moving back in when it is not necessary to do so - with the side junction in this case it makes sense for traffic in the right lane to signal IF they are moving back to the left lane. We know nothing of the road layout to the left of the sketch - there could be multiple reasons why traffic in the right lane having completed an overtake would not move over to the left.

Although there is no requirement for consideration to filtering traffic the IAM preach that you should adjust your speed and if possible make space by changing lanes to assist traffic to join.
 
Being a biker myself I’m incensed by the title of the thread it’s self TBH.. You admit the biker wasn’t speeding but was at your window in seconds.. maybe just maybe you actually like many idiot car drivers didn’t even see the biker..

I find the quotes of law and order and the Highway Code frankly amusing every time anyone one of us go out in the car the Highway Code goes straight out the window.. who knows the exact stopping distance doing 50mph in the rain of there car over that of the next car on the road.. weather or not he was zooming at 100mph weaving in and out of traffic undertaking or what ever else us BIKERS get branded as doing, you adopt common sense. If you saw a truck doing 50mph would you of pulled out ? I doubt it !
 
Skipton01 said:
No, I've seen the drawing. There is no requirement for traffic on the main road to be considerate to traffic wishing to join - unless it's very slow moving/crawling traffic, when there should be consideration given to allow traffic to filter in.

You hit the nail on the head though - sufficient space to join safely. In this case, there doesn't seem to have been, as a non-speeding motorcycle was alongside Craig's car within seconds. Common sense says that you don't pull out into oncoming traffic. What would be wrong with allowing the traffic to pass? Save a few seconds, pull out on traffic which has right of way (remember, Craig was at a give way line - the clue is in the name), cause an accident. All for the sake of saving a few seconds.

Nobody is talking about legal requirements. It's about common sense, judgement and courtesy, which the motorcyclist deemed to be lacking in Craog's manoeuvre.
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No Mike,

I'll disagree with your sentiments.

The law is vauge and always open to dispute, hence why you'll rarely see a poor lawyer/solicitor, so I don't think we'll have a legal answer on here, just some common sense.

As an driver with multiple valid licenses, and a considerate nature for all road users, showing due care and consideration should apply to everyone, whether you believe you have right-of-way, or otherwise.

The bike rider was in a different lane to the car driver, and therefore not at imminent risk, assuming the car driver wasn't driving erratically and moving between lanes.
If there was a constant stream of traffic in the right hand lane and nothing at all in the middle lane (actaully the left lane by default), your text suggests it would be incorrect to move out from a side junction at all, but the car on the minor road should wait until the whole carriagway is completely clear of traffic for a distance that no other road traffic would be bothered by a vehicle joining the road.

Driving articulated vehicles, cars and riding motorcycles gives many different viewpoints on road safety.
Making correct and steady progress on a road and being considerate to all others who are using the surrounding space make for happy motoring, so, for me, the bike rider wasn't in the right mental place to be riding at that particular time.

Everyone is safe, and that's really all that matters anyway.
 
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Hang on a sec - the car driver (Craig) was at a GIVE WAY LINE. It does what it says. Vehicles joining a road should give way to those vehicles on that road already. Do you have a valid motorcycle license and do you ride regularly? Are you a psychologist too, able to judge a person's mental state?

Everyone is safe, but at least one person was shaken up by Craig pulling out into a road where traffic was coming. That Craig has learned from his mistake is what matters too.
 
I am a little confused here, when you join a motorway you also join from a give way line. Does this mean you are not permitted to join Lane one unless all lanes are clear? Simple guy asking a simple question :)
 
BoxyA2 said:
Being a biker myself I’m incensed by the title of the thread it’s self TBH.. You admit the biker wasn’t speeding but was at your window in seconds.. maybe just maybe you actually like many idiot car drivers didn’t even see the biker..

I find the quotes of law and order and the Highway Code frankly amusing every time anyone one of us go out in the car the Highway Code goes straight out the window.. who knows the exact stopping distance doing 50mph in the rain of there car over that of the next car on the road.. weather or not he was zooming at 100mph weaving in and out of traffic undertaking or what ever else us BIKERS get branded as doing, you adopt common sense. If you saw a truck doing 50mph would you of pulled out ? I doubt it !
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Why are you incensed, it was aimed at a single guy on a motorbike as the title states, nowhere did I say all bikers are like this, It could have just as easily been "idiot in a car" and I did see the biker as I noticed he was not indicating, perhaps you should read things more carefully.
 
craigyb said:
Why are you incensed, it was aimed at a single guy on a motorbike as the title states, nowhere did I say all bikers are like this, It could have just as easily been "idiot in a car" and I did see the biker as I noticed he was not indicating, perhaps you should read things more carefully.
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I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, if you didn’t want both sides of the argument and views of others an open forum isn’t the place to air your grevences and name calling.. pathetic !
 
As a biker I am appalled that anyone could be supporting criagyb's action. He was at a give way junction and he didn't give way and for whatever reason caused a biker on the main road a problem (maybe strayed momentarily into the other lane because of the tight turn, or just surprised the biker with his action). Craigyb was clearly in the wrong and needs to improve his driving.
 
Charming language Craig, if not top notch spelling.

It’s not a case of me being right and you being wrong - I simply state the facts and rules of the HC, along with referencing Roadcraft and the IAM. That you object to this (and I am also far from being alone in my assessment of your manoeuvring) is irrelevant. As one of the involved parties, your view of the other party is hardly unbiased or objective and your assertion that the biker is an idiot is hardly surprising.

Perhaps if you named the roads at the junction, we could give a more accurate analysis - I am familiar with your part of Manchester.

And your final point is quite aposite - you could be next to me on the road quite easily and I am appalled that I could be riding along one day and have you pull out into my path. If you’re confused by a lack of indication to move lanes to the left, then perhaps you should investigate advanced lessons - once you’ve passed your driving test, it doesn’t mean you stop learning you know.
 
Either way, everyone makes mistakes and nobody is perfect, I don’t understand why people get so wound up on the road. The motorcyclist could have just carried on his merry way without the anger. IMO it’s the anger on the road that causes the problem.
I am a commuter on a push bike and everyday someone hurls abuse at me, I just ignore and carry on, life’s too short.
 
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