Massive brake repair or a scam?

Ridge

Ridge

New Member
Finland
Yikes. Just when I got my CCCU fixed I had to bring my A2 to a workshop due to the brakes screeching and I noticed the front brake pads are shot and the discs are rusted which need replacing. My A2 actually had passed MOT a month ago and the brakes were just barely OK, the inspector said "well, your car has brakes..."

So the mechanics call me 30 minutes later to come see the "bad news". He shows me bottom of the car and says the drum brakes slightly came apart when he opened them because they are so rusted. The drum brake pads are loose and get filth inside. He also says that the front disc brake hoses look like they need to be replaced.

He told me to roll the empty rear wheel to feel that the driveshaft/ bearings are broken and need to be replaced too for the brake drums to work fine. More importantly, he said that the "brake pipes" (probably brake lines in English) are nearly broken and to replace them you need to disconnect the fuel tank which requires a lot of work. He said that there's a 50-50 chance that the brake line will break if he tries to change the drums without changing them as well. He gave an estimate of 1000 € for the easy repair which might destroy the lines, or +2000 € for the full repair including shaft, bearing and brake line because there are a lot of parts and it requires 1.5 days to complete the work. He instead offers me a very small sum to buy the car from me and repair it in his spare time.

Does his assessment sound reasonable? I haven't gone to this workshop before, but they seem to have alright reviews.
 
Ridge said:
Yikes. Just when I got my CCCU fixed I had to bring my A2 to a workshop due to the brakes screeching and I noticed the front brake pads are shot and the discs are rusted which need replacing. My A2 actually had passed MOT a month ago and the brakes were just barely OK, the inspector said "well, your car has brakes..."

So the mechanics call me 30 minutes later to come see the "bad news". He shows me bottom of the car and says the drum brakes slightly came apart when he opened them because they are so rusted. The drum brake pads are loose and get filth inside. He also says that the front disc brake hoses look like they need to be replaced.

He told me to roll the empty rear wheel to feel that the driveshaft/ bearings are broken and need to be replaced too for the brake drums to work fine. More importantly, he said that the "brake pipes" (probably brake lines in English) are nearly broken and to replace them you need to disconnect the fuel tank which requires a lot of work. He said that there's a 50-50 chance that the brake line will break if he tries to change the drums without changing them as well. He gave an estimate of 1000 € for the easy repair which might destroy the lines, or +2000 € for the full repair including shaft, bearing and brake line because there are a lot of parts and it requires 1.5 days to complete the work. He instead offers me a very small sum to buy the car from me and repair it in his spare time.

Does his assessment sound reasonable? I haven't gone to this workshop before, but they seem to have alright reviews.
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Totally wrong this is a front wheel drive car & as such has front drive shafts only !
Rear wheels are just wheel bearings & are quick to change when brake drums are off.
Hold pipe still & unscrew the cylinders to remove from pipe best method.
Hope that helps
Keith.
 
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I think the term rear wheel bearing/axle stub has been confused with driveshaft. But i have this work done recently on a clio and A2 its not hard work but you need all the bits and a rebleed.

I didnt think you need the tank removing as the rear brake flexi hoses sit ono the rear axle, you connect solid pipes from there to the rear wheel drum cylinders. Take a look underneath. If they mean the brake lines all the way to front then maybe... The tank is on the left on RHD cars, is that over the flexi hoses on the axle?

I would say £800 for rear bearings, new drums shoes cyclinders, make some solid pipes up and then rebleeding the system isnt far off, over here in Uk I would say £500-£600 but it varies throughout our coountry regions hugely, thats here?....

Get a few quotes for the work and wait a bit if you can.
 
The last bit about offering to buy the car from you is what first rang alarm bells with me. Then, I doubt a full brake overhaul costs anything like the equivalent of 1000 Euros over here. Unless Finnish labour rates are something ridiculous, then I wonder if he's after your car and he might be over-quoting you in order to persuade you to part with it.
 
Thanks for the replies. I had a bit of a hard time understanding everything he was explaining, because he was mixing Finnish language with Estonian, but he was willing to show everything underneath with a flashlight. Plus I don't actually know much about the brake system, never serviced any myself.

Proghound said:
The last bit about offering to buy the car from you is what first rang alarm bells with me. Then, I doubt a full brake overhaul costs anything like the equivalent of 1000 Euros over here. Unless Finnish labour rates are something ridiculous, then I wonder if he's after your car and he might be over-quoting you in order to persuade you to part with it.
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Labour rate is 80 € per hour (£ 70 ).

He was also saying that the rear axle is rusted (why does that matter, it's not going to rust through?) and that the clutch will soon need replacing (the clutch has a high biting point but has never slipped) which felt like he was persuading me to sell and also rang alarm bells for me. But as I understood it, the brake pipe fail bit was the most serious one, and I told him that I would just rather get a cheap fix to get it on the road and if it breaks, it breaks. Then he replied that he's not going to do a repair like that because he can't guarantee that the brakes won't fail on the motorway.
 
Right, as I said he informed me that something came loose inside the brake drums when he opened them. He explained that if he now puts them back together, the drum brakes will work even worse. Well, shouldn't I be offered a compensation if my car actually works worse after the mechanic has touched it - or was this a persuasion tactic too?
 
CrispyEdd said:
I think the term rear wheel bearing/axle stub has been confused with driveshaft. But i have this work done recently on a clio and A2 its not hard work but you need all the bits and a rebleed.

I didnt think you need the tank removing as the rear brake flexi hoses sit ono the rear axle, you connect solid pipes from there to the rear wheel drum cylinders. Take a look underneath. If they mean the brake lines all the way to front then maybe... The tank is on the left on RHD cars, is that over the flexi hoses on the axle?

I would say £800 for rear bearings, new drums shoes cyclinders, make some solid pipes up and then rebleeding the system isnt far off, over here in Uk I would say £500-£600 but it varies throughout our coountry regions hugely, thats here?....

Get a few quotes for the work and wait a bit if you can.
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Sounds to me like the handbrake cables are being described here - those are up in the chassis well adjacent to the fuel tank aren't they?
there are two (three) parts. The Y-shaped piece from the handbrake going rearwards is only now usually available from Audi Tradition (and in limited supply if my understanding is correct) ; then this is connected on either side to individual cables that continue inside a bowden housing to the rear brake drums. Depending on exact year these are identical, or there are two slightly different ones for left side and right side but I don't know the precise details.
 
Ridge said:
Right, as I said he informed me that something came loose inside the brake drums when he opened them. He explained that now if he puts them back together, the drum brakes will work even worse. Well, shouldn't I be offered a compensation if my car actually works worse after the mechanic has touched it.
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You need to do the work hes trying to explain you need to change more bits like the drums ore the new brake shoes wont marry if theyre ovalised.
 
That labour rate is not much above UK prices (at least in the South-East), before VAT is added. Best advice I think at the moment is still to get other quotes.

As more information comes to light, it might not be the scam that it first seemed. The rear axle itself (the 'bridge') may not be going to split in half with rust, but the rear spring seats on the back of it can get weakened by rust to the point that the rear suspension collapses. Thank goodness it's a 2001 build otherwise you'd probably be looking at replacing both front suspension control arms too. It does sound like your car has seen a lot of salted roads in its life though, so you should probably be prepared for more bills to come or lose whatever you put into it now. I do wonder if maybe the guy's looking at it as a donor car for someone else he knows who has one, rather than fixing it himself.

Just seen your later post come in while typing this. We can't advise about compensation, and in any case the laws about that may be different in Finland than here. But if what was already on your car was so rusted that opening to inspect it has broken it, that doesn't sound like the garage's fault to me. You've probably now either got to get it fixed or scrap it, and if you fix it then get it done locally so that you don't have to drive very far or very fast with defective brakes.
 
There is a lot wrong but some some of it may be due to translation to English.
If your front discs are rusted and not cleaning after a long drive then yes they need replacing. The front flexible pipes though should have been spotted by your MOT tester. I would be cautious about anything that has been flagged that your MOT tester could have spotted.
Drum brakes do not allow large amounts of filth inside but if he is saying the shoes are not contacting correctly there could be a build up of dust on the shoes.
I assume the empty rear wheel is the wheel fitted without drums? Failed stub axle bearings will be rough or have free play in them. They would also be noisy so you should already be aware of them failing and your MOT tester should have found this fault.
Brake pipes are probably brake cables, they fray and depending which tank you have the fuel tank may need to come out. I think though you have the smaller tank and that one does not need to come out. Your MOT tester should also have spotted and reported frayed cables.
Cables will not fail on the motorway, unless you get caught in a traffic jam. but brake pipes could, again brake pipes corroded to this extent could have been spotted by your MOT tester.
Yes axles do rust through but is yours that bad? Again something else your MOT tester should have spotted and reported.
The time for the job seems excessive, I could do it on my drive in 1 day, brakes, brake cables and rear stub axle bearings.
He offered to buy the car then said that he couldn't resemble the rear brake safely and for good measure it needs a clutch. The parts alone, that he has flagged as faulty, I suspect would exceed the value of the car even if he puts his own labour in free of charge. If it as bad as he says it is I can't understand why he wants it. It is impossible to say without seeing the car but this feels like a scam.
I'd recover it to a garage I trust and start again. I've no idea about compensation, my priority would be to move the car.
 
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I've never had a mechanic saying, he'd buy my faulty car and he'd fix it in his free time, kind of sounds like he's after your car 🤨
I'd take the car to another garage, but if he took the drum brakes apart, you can't drive it away. Replacing both drum brake sets aren't big work, had mine done few months ago, so maybe tell him to do that and drive to another garage.
Also if the bearings and other parts are that bad, go back where the mot was done and ask why didn't they mention those issues.
 
philward said:
There is a lot wrong but some some of it may be due to translation to English.
If your front discs are rusted and not cleaning after a long drive then yes they need replacing. The front flexible pipes though should have been spotted by your MOT tester. I would be cautious about anything that has been flagged that your MOT tester could have spotted.
Drum brakes do not allow large amounts of filth inside but if he is saying the shoes are not contacting correctly there could be a build up of dust on the shoes.
I assume the empty rear wheel is the wheel fitted without drums? Failed stub axle bearings will be rough or have free play in them. They would also be noisy so you should already be aware of them failing and your MOT tester should have found this fault.
Brake pipes are probably brake cables, they fray and depending which tank you have the fuel tank may need to come out. I think though you have the smaller tank and that one does not need to come out. Your MOT tester should also have spotted and reported frayed cables.
Cables will not fail on the motorway, unless you get caught in a traffic jam. but brake pipes could, again brake pipes corroded to this extent could have been spotted by your MOT tester.
Yes axles do rust through but is yours that bad? Again something else your MOT tester should have spotted and reported.
The time for the job seems excessive, I could do it on my drive in 1 day, brakes, brake cables and rear stub axle bearings.
He offered to buy the car then said that he couldn't resemble the rear brake safely and for good measure it needs a clutch. The parts alone, that he has flagged as faulty, I suspect would exceed the value of the car even if he puts his own labour in free of charge. If it as bad as he says it is I can't understand why he wants it. It is impossible to say without seeing the car but this feels like a scam.
I'd recover it to a garage I trust and start again. I've no idea about compensation, my priority would be to move the car.
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Thanks for a very extensive reply. MOT was privatized in Finland many years ago and now the quality of the service may vary depending on which company you go for the MOT. But I do have my doubts about that a mechanic would consider the pipes, hoses and rear bearings unsafe and unworkable when they passed MOT 1 month ago.

We already kind of made a spoken agreement about him buying it, but we would have only made the contract of sale on Monday, and obviously all the ownership papers are still in my name. I was a bit discouraged about owning a car of this age without being able to do repairs like this myself, if the costs are in this ballpark. I just contacted the garage that I trust and asked about this. Their mechanic has 10 years of Volkswagen Group experience. If they think they can do this for a lot cheaper, I'll definitely keep it. The only reason I went to this new garage was because there's tyre deflation issue on one tyre and I happened to also ask about the brake repairs.
 
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To get out of the situation, tell that dodgy mechanic, even if you don't mean it, you want to take the car back to the MOT place to ask, why they didn't warn you about such serious issue and want to demand for compensation. He'd fix the rear brake drums, then you take the car and never look back. Ask other garages for quotes, it worth it to look around.
 
Ridge said:
....because there's tyre deflation issue on one tyre and I happened to also ask about the brake repairs.
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Tyre deflation issue is very commonplace on our 20-year old alloys.

Often the valve seat is corroded, so air can sizzle around the valve (if there is water in the well on a rainy day you will hear / and or see a stream of bubbles around the valve) ; otherwise in more extreme cases the bead seat around the periphery of the rim is oxidised and air will be leaking slowly around the edges. Both are usually repairable by any place that either refurbishes rims or at least takes care in properly cleaning up the valve seat and rim edges when fitting a new tyre.
 
If you have a list of parts needed ie rear brake drums, shoes, cylinders, discs and pads along with hard brake lines etc etc - Go on Autodoc and price all the parts up.
Ive just priced up for 1.4tdi 75 with drum brakes the following - New front discs and pads with new bearings, new drums and shoes along with bearing and rear cylinders and 4 brake hoses for £299 /€339
Add a further £30/€34 for handbrake cables, hard pipes have not been priced!

Assuming €400 euros for parts allow for profit from garage = €480 euros (20% uplift) from the €1000 = €520 is labour / €80 = 6.5 hours work and thats for all new brakes all round and 4 new wheel bearings
 
So it turns out he broke the brake pipe when he opened the rear right brake drum. Either the brake pipe was really rusted or then he somehow brute forced it open? Not sure if I can complain.

The brake fluids came out too. After being warned not to press the brake pedal at all, I tried to drive it to the other garage (which is less than 500 meters away), but the car refused to start. They tried to read the fault codes and checked all fuses but nothing. It's possible that the battery died and it's being recharged now after it also failed to start with a battery booster (they didn't even think of the batttery, I did!! Though at first it didn't seem at all that the ignition doesn't get electricity, so it's not sure yet if recharging will help or did we just drain the battery by trying to start it for so long).

The other mechanic said he'll do full brake repair including the pipe for 50 % of the other offer. If it starts I'll drive to that garage in an instant.
 
I'd bet he tried to unscrew the nut on the fluid bleeder, and twisted it without looking how stuck it was after the years, so it broke off.
When my A2 got new drum brake set, the mechanic asked me and he ended up spinning the whole bleeder as the bolt was rusted. It had to be aligned a bit, but it works great.
Good you've managed to sort it and with another mechanic 👍
 
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If it's only 500m away i'm sure a couple of the boys from the other garage can push it for you. Sounds like he's trying his luck. It's all easy enough work to do.
 
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