Poor performance 1st and 2nd gear ATL/TDI 90 below 2000rpm.

Menno

A2OC Donor

A separate topic so the 6 speed gearbox topic (link above) will not be hijacked.
Sorry for the inconvenience


Well, what can I say; I'm very surprised with my ATL in combination with a PTW 6 speed.
You know those cheerleader pom-pom girls, and the pompoms stay down cause there's nothing to cheerio about..... That's how I feel.

My first ATL was a king in pulling second gear from almost tick over. I almost made it a sport to shift to 2nd early and give it full berries. Maybe no good for the DMF, but I was encountering that one when it did need replacing.
Then it was totaled in an accident, a write off.
Another A2 was bought, this time an AMF. A Bluemotion gearbox was fitted and a remap, the drive was sweet although not as swift and punchy as the ATL.

Now, this new ATL I have. The one which doesn't get the cheerleaders to cheer.
It has a PTW gearbox, a SMF and new clutch including timing belt and all accompanied auxiliaries, a new oil pump chain and sprockets and uprated/stronger bearing cap bolts.
It's timed with VCDS, spot on, and also all parameters are correct when driving (thanx @DuncanA2 ), as in fuel quantities, turbo load/pressure and so on.
It's not remapped, yet, and it struggles in 1st and 2nd until it reaches 2100rpm. As soon it's in third gear things come together and the ATL is behaving like it should, even a little before 2000rpm.
My wife took the car yesterday because her car required some maintenance.
She asked if I was happy with the ATL when she came back with it...... I almost broke down and cried..... ??.

The AMF tdi I still have is a lot more fun to drive.
So does anyone has something to say about it?

There's no fault codes present, it's not in limp mode or going in there.
I found an article about the vacuüm box which can mess up the VTG adjustment (without triggering a fault) on the turbo, so another box (used one) will be tested upcoming Saturday.

If anyone encountered this also and found some kind of solution, it would be very welcome.....

Replaced parts list (maintenance, not problem related.....yet) engine/gearbox related:

Glowplugs
Timing set complete
Oilpump chain and gearwheels
Gearbox PTW
SMF
Clutch complete.
Fuel filter
Airfilter
MAF
 
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Turbo vanes sticking or not travelling full range and / or tandem pump / injectors issue. Try running a very good fuel cleaner and a VNT cleaner to see if things improve. Worth also looking for a mechanical issue on the turbo. As far as I know there is no measuring blocks for the turbo vanes in VCDS so probably safe to say they themselves are not capable of triggering a fault or warning lamp.

The fuelling may need to be remapped for the ratios in the PTW box. Any smoke, black or white?
 
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With manual vacuumpump it's possible to get full travel at actuator/rod.
Turbo was replaced in 2018, receipt from former owner present.
All vacuum pipes tested, no leakage or loss of vacuum.
Injectors are giving very good amount of fuel according to VCDS.
"Turbo cleaner" used, on half a tankfull (should be full tank of diesel).

Once shifted to 3rd gear, things are getting back to how an ATL more or less should perform.
In third gear engine is willing to pick up speed at 1800/1900rpm.
 
So you get full range using manual pump, but does the engine also give the full range? Is it smooth through the range or jump in very small steps?

Just because the pipes are holding vacuum does not mean they are receiving vacuum or the correct amount..

Have you had the car on a rolling road or securely raised and front wheels off to see if the car is still dragged down when there is no rolling resistance?

Smoke in the exhaust?
 
I'm in lockdown with covid after just emptying two bottles of forte turbo cleaner in my atl. I will be loading it up the m5 Gordano hills for a fews days to see what happens to my turbo lag. Mine also was lagging badly until higher revs 2000ish then going ballistic, limping under load in 5th only up a hill at speed, no limps in any other situation just ballistic turbo. Its likely the vanes on mine as the vacuum reading were not atmospheric at tickover and didn't rise with slow rev increase until a certain point (I guess when they unstick). Will report back or on my thread next week. Its just having a quick oil cooler leak fix
 
I'm in lockdown with covid after just emptying two bottles of forte turbo cleaner in my atl. I will be loading it up the m5 Gordano hills for a fews days to see what happens to my turbo lag. Mine also was lagging badly until higher revs 2000ish then going ballistic, limping under load in 5th only up a hill at speed, no limps in any other situation just ballistic turbo. Its likely the vanes on mine as the vacuum reading were not atmospheric at tickover and didn't rise with slow rev increase until a certain point (I guess when they unstick). Will report back or on my thread next week. Its just having a quick oil cooler leak fix
I'm in lockdown with covid after just emptying two bottles of forte turbo cleaner in my atl. I will be loading it up the m5 Gordano hills for a fews days to see what happens to my turbo lag. Mine also was lagging badly until higher revs 2000ish then going ballistic, limping under load in 5th only up a hill at speed, no limps in any other situation just ballistic turbo. Its likely the vanes on mine as the vacuum reading were not atmospheric at tickover and didn't rise with slow rev increase until a certain point (I guess when they unstick). Will report back or on my thread next week. Its just having a quick oil cooler leak fix
×Just read your note above on cleaner sorry
 
So you get full range using manual pump, but does the engine also give the full range? Is it smooth through the range or jump in very small steps?

Just because the pipes are holding vacuum does not mean they are receiving vacuum or the correct amount..

Have you had the car on a rolling road or securely raised and front wheels off to see if the car is still dragged down when there is no rolling resistance?

Smoke in the exhaust?
Your correct: I do not know yet or it will alter the actuator full range.
I know that VCDS is giving the correct parameters when driving, still it feels like it is restrained in 1st and 2nd., upcoming saturday I will try out another vacuum control box.
No, it does not smoke.
No draging brakes, (offcourse not!!).
 
Just out of curiosty do you have the same wheels and tyres front and rear? If not try swapping them around to see if it is initial tyre resistance. Doubt it though and still think it is a VNT issue.
 
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My dad's galaxy would not pull a greasy stick out of a dog's bottom without ridiculous revs, found timing belt was slack/failed tensioner damper! (Earlier PD engine)
Are you happy the belts correct?
 
So you get full range using manual pump, but does the engine also give the full range? Is it smooth through the range or jump in very small steps?

Just because the pipes are holding vacuum does not mean they are receiving vacuum or the correct amount..

Have you had the car on a rolling road or securely raised and front wheels off to see if the car is still dragged down when there is no rolling resistance?

Smoke in the exhaust?
What does smoke indicate? Sticky turbo?
 
Boost leak or unmetered air

Usually a loud hiss the harder you accelerate (info not applicable to DPF vehicles but no A2 has one)
 
Could it be that it needs a remap to pull the longer PTW gears with the same gusto as you remember?

sounds like there’s more to it Menno but this would account for some of the difference of expectations vs. reality I would think

EDIT just seen the original MYP thread and posts where this point has already been discussed
 
With manual vacuumpump it's possible to get full travel at actuator/rod.
Turbo was replaced in 2018, receipt from former owner present.
All vacuum pipes tested, no leakage or loss of vacuum.
Injectors are giving very good amount of fuel according to VCDS.
"Turbo cleaner" used, on half a tankfull (should be full tank of diesel).

Once shifted to 3rd gear, things are getting back to how an ATL more or less should perform.
In third gear engine is willing to pick up speed at 1800/1900rpm.
Hi Menno,
Have you tried pulling a vacuum on the module box on the vacuum input side as could be a blocked/ restricted port or fitting causing the issue,
The actuator on the turbo should move with very light finger pressure! With actuator linkage disconnected.
Hope that helps.
Keith
 
Have you tried pulling a vacuum on the module box on the vacuum input side as could be a blocked/ restricted port or fitting causing the issue,
The actuator on the turbo should move with very light finger pressure! With actuator linkage disconnected.
I wouldn't disconnect the linkage; the adjustment is locked and not meant to be adjusted. You can easily check the diaphragm for leaks.

RAB
 
I would check the turbo, mine was similar when turbo was on way out on both A2 ATL and my A4, also leaking oil, drained about a pint out of intake in A4 just after the intercooler.

later on my ATL started to smoke a fair bit also but at first it would just feel like it was late to spool the turbo, but in higher gears presumably with more load on engine vs. speed it was revving up it would feel fine.

2 years on replacement turbo sounds like pretty rubbish, but then mine came with an invoice for replacement DMF and clutch and when she coughed up the springs from DMF as well as clutch I found out it was indeed the original Clutch manufactured late 2004...

The refurb turbo it had also gave up 9 years after fitment, if it was a cheapo turbo from China or refurbished with a poor core from China (not to crap on China but that is where they all seem to come from) I would not be surprised if it is failing. I managed to snap a picture of the label plate on turbo without removing anything though it was tricky, then emailed turbotechnics to check when it was rebuild - might be an option just to confirm it is genuine/done by an established rebuilder, would expect it to look fairly new if it is only 2 years old.




The A4 turbo from symptoms anyway seemed to be bleeding oil quite bad towards the end of it and vanes were stuck on the higher RPM position (Open?) which instead of having the smooth transition it has with new turbo it would have more a pin to the seat jolt when it hit that 2.1k ish RPM.

VCDS would show funny number on the A4 also, whilst lethargic it would actually show full boost at about 1200rpm of 2.6bar but not give actual good power until about 2.2k with a kick.

I love the sudden kick from old fashioned turbo and wouldn't mind it too much, however when it started to throw a smokescreen I couldn't ignore it any longer :D


anyways just my experience, hope it might give some help/insight.
 
IMG_20181229_105502594.jpg

Access is poor to that small clip
 
That looks like an AMF or BHC turbo not a VNT ATL tdi 90 turbo. That clip is on the arm of the boost controller a.k.a waste gate.

This is a picture of the VNT actuator and limkage on the ATL

1626479483289.png
 
Red herring from me, my apologies.
I need to take more care with fact checking.
The picture I posted is of the BHC turbo set up.
 

A separate topic so the 6 speed gearbox topic (link above) will not be hijacked.
Sorry for the inconvenience


Well, what can I say; I'm very surprised with my ATL in combination with a PTW 6 speed.
You know those cheerleader pom-pom girls, and the pompoms stay down cause there's nothing to cheerio about..... That's how I feel.

My first ATL was a king in pulling second gear from almost tick over. I almost made it a sport to shift to 2nd early and give it full berries. Maybe no good for the DMF, but I was encountering that one when it did need replacing.
Then it was totaled in an accident, a write off.
Another A2 was bought, this time an AMF. A Bluemotion gearbox was fitted and a remap, the drive was sweet although not as swift and punchy as the ATL.

Now, this new ATL I have. The one which doesn't get the cheerleaders to cheer.
It has a PTW gearbox, a SMF and new clutch including timing belt and all accompanied auxiliaries, a new oil pump chain and sprockets and uprated/stronger bearing cap bolts.
It's timed with VCDS, spot on, and also all parameters are correct when driving (thanx @DuncanA2 ), as in fuel quantities, turbo load/pressure and so on.
It's not remapped, yet, and it struggles in 1st and 2nd until it reaches 2100rpm. As soon it's in third gear things come together and the ATL is behaving like it should, even a little before 2000rpm.
My wife took the car yesterday because her car required some maintenance.
She asked if I was happy with the ATL when she came back with it...... I almost broke down and cried..... ??.

The AMF tdi I still have is a lot more fun to drive.
So does anyone has something to say about it?

There's no fault codes present, it's not in limp mode or going in there.
I found an article about the vacuüm box which can mess up the VTG adjustment (without triggering a fault) on the turbo, so another box (used one) will be tested upcoming Saturday.

If anyone encountered this also and found some kind of solution, it would be very welcome.....

Replaced parts list (maintenance, not problem related.....yet) engine/gearbox related:

Glowplugs
Timing set complete
Oilpump chain and gearwheels
Gearbox PTW
SMF
Clutch complete.
Fuel filter
Airfilter
MAF
Hi Menno,
You can’t check the timing on the PD or CR engines with VCDS or any scan tool see below:

“Note to PD (pumpe duese aka unit injectors) and CR (common rail) owners: The timing in PD and CR engines is determined electronically by the ECU. There is neither a need nor an ability to check timing on the PD or CR engines using a scan tool. There are no graphs published for the simple reason that the timing is set using a dedicated VAG locking tool when changing the timing belt” :)

So maybe that is the issue.
Hope that helps Keith.
 
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