Radio 4 program on switching to electric cars

[spike]

Radio 4 program 'Sliced Bread' on 'how green is switching to an electric car'

BBC Radio 4 - Sliced Bread

While Sliced Bread takes a break, we serve up… Toast.

www.bbc.co.uk

As a fence sitter it answered a few questions I've not seen covered before

Cheers Spike

 

[donp38]

One of my vehicles is an all electric.
Will be moving it on when I can and will go back to 100% Diesel..
Probably about 6years too early to go all electric.
Having said that, if you only do within 50miles of where you live and you have another vehicle for travelling distance then that will be fine also as you will only charge up at home......

 

[terrywindy1]

One of my vehicles is an all electric.
Will be moving it on when I can and will go back to 100% Diesel..
Probably about 6years too early to go all electric.
Having said that, if you only do within 50miles of where you live and you have another vehicle for travelling distance then that will be fine also as you will only charge up at home......

Why 50 miles?

 

[Guest 4123]

All presented as a choice we can all make without any consequences! Some people are in for a somewhat unpleasant surprise!

Why 50 miles?

That was my reaction as well. Perhaps it depends on range. I'm just about to make a trip to SW France.

RAB

 

[donp38]

As that will give you a round trip range of around 100miles between charge ups.
Have a look at the early Nissan Leafs and what miles they have left on a full but old battery..
The range only get less with cold weather and age of battery..
Just my thoughts really..

 

[Proghound]

Lynette my other half would be a prime candidate for an 'old' EV as her next car, when her diesel Yaris either dies or gets passed on to her daughter. She does almost entirely local runs, no further than 20 miles from home and mainly within 1-2 miles. Any further than that and I'm with her, driving one of my diesels.

 

[spike]

The program compared petrol and electric Vauxhall Corsas and the big surprise to me was the 'manufacturing' carbon footprint was 12 Tons CO2 for the EV compared to 6.7 Tons CO2 for the petrol version. Estimated break even point when charging via the grid (40% generated by fossil fuels) was 37K miles.

Cheers Spike

 

[Guest 4123]

Estimated break even point when charging via the grid (40% generated by fossil fuels) was 37K miles.

In other words, if you use renewable energy to charge your car, the CO2 break even point is about 23k miles. Yes, I know that a car can't discriminate between electrons but the consumer can shape the grid by buying only from renewable sources. Most charging companies use only renewables. Charging a car from fossil fuel sources is self-defeating.

RAB

 

[Rusty911]

The program compared petrol and electric Vauxhall Corsas and the big surprise to me was the 'manufacturing' carbon footprint was 12 Tons CO2 for the EV compared to 6.7 Tons CO2 for the petrol version. Estimated break even point when charging via the grid (40% generated by fossil fuels) was 37K miles.

Cheers Spike

To use even that rather pessimistic supply % (mine is already 50% from renewables) that does mean from 37K miles to, what, 120k the EV is coming out ahead.

PLUS the EV gives you a choice where to put those emissions: away from towns and cities.

PLUS even old EV batteries have a use as home batteries when no longer suited for vehicles.

PLUS with an EV some people can do many miles directly from their own solar.

Therefore that 37K miles is worst case and doesn't take the above into account.

The biggest lobbying budgets on the planet come from the fossil fuel industry. I've not got an EV yet, but do have solar, plus electric bike, strimmer and mower. I can see why they're terrified and will throw everything and the kitchen sink at anti-green propaganda.

 

[Rusty911]

In other words, if you use renewable energy to charge your car, the CO2 break even point is about 23k miles. Yes, I know that a car can't discriminate between electrons but the consumer can shape the grid by buying only from renewable sources. Most charging companies use only renewables. Charging a car from fossil fuel sources is self-defeating.

RAB

Somewhat disagree:a gas fired plant is still way, way more efficient than extracting oil, refining it, moving it again and then running it through an internal combustion engine outside of a school.

Nevertheless, we are on the same side of the argument.

The thing that nobody dares say though is that movement by personal car is a privilege and we all need to reduce the miles we do. All those little 'popping out' runs, a family taking two cars instead of one, not car sharing on the commute.

The biggest EV lie is we can just consume our way out of this.

 

[BearMcPear]

I would love an electric vehicle, but they are quite expensive still.
The cheapest option here is a used Nissan Leaf with about 100 km (60 miles) range left, which drops quite a bit in the winter.
One thing that has always bothered me a little bit about cars, just mentioned by @Rusty911 as well, is that cars are often 1.5 ton devices moving only one person around. A motorcycle is not the right choice for everyone, but can be much more efficient in terms of fuel/space used in those circumstances.

 

[Guest 4123]

Somewhat disagree:a gas fired plant is still way, way more efficient than extracting oil, refining it, moving it again and then running it through an internal combustion engine outside of a school.

Yes, gas is better than oil or coal but it is still taking carbon out of the ground and putting it in the atmosphere.

The thing that nobody dares say though is that movement by personal car is a privilege and we all need to reduce the miles we do. All those little 'popping out' runs, a family taking two cars instead of one, not car sharing on the commute.

My electric Brompton will do about 230km per kwh; the ID3 manages about 7.

RAB

 

[donp38]

We also need to consider absolute end of life (vehicle) inc batteries...

 

[Rusty911]

Yes, gas is better than oil or coal but it is still taking carbon out of the ground and putting it in the atmosphere.

My electric Brompton will do about 230km per kwh; the ID3 manages about 7.

RAB

Yes, I giggled a bit when I worked out the 'mpg' of my EBike.

Fully Charged have illustrated several times it is in fact quite a bit better to generate centrally then distribute that energy as electricity to be used in an EV rather than burn the fuel in an incredibly inefficient internal combustion engine in each car. As a quick e.g. a gas turbine plant doesn't have lossy heat cycles like your five mile trip to the shops might.

Again, the fossil fuel industry would love us to take the lazy view that it doesn't matter where it's burnt, it's all the same thing really. Well, it's simply not. They know that as EV ownership goes up, even if initially part powered via coal / gas the odds are that more and more renewables will come on line to power them. Keep people in fossil fueled cars and there's no real alternative: you're stuck with fossil fuels.

 

[Rusty911]

We also need to consider absolute end of life (vehicle) inc batteries...

That's true. As an aside, how do we recycle diesel or coal?

People always look at you as though you're mad if you say that usually having said about batteries being hard to recycle.

The truth is diesel and petrol are products as well. They are extracted from tricky places with an environmental and human cost, then refined and combined with other chemicals, just like batteries. They're then moved again to a petrol station. Finally they get burnt: thrown away, chucked out, recycled into heat, a little bit of movement, some particulate and lots of gases, the main one hanging all around us and future generations for about 400 years in the case of CO2.

A battery is very similar in that's it's a rather grubby product, except you get to use it for, say five years in the case of a mower or power tool, or what, 15-20 years in the case of an ev battery later used for off-grid power. You get to choose what energy it stores: from coal to home solar.

That battery can potentially still be recycled even after all that, long, long after that first tank of petrol was burnt off.

 

[Rusty911]

One of my vehicles is an all electric.
Will be moving it on when I can and will go back to 100% Diesel..
Probably about 6years too early to go all electric.
Having said that, if you only do within 50miles of where you live and you have another vehicle for travelling distance then that will be fine also as you will only charge up at home......

Be very interested to hear your whole story: why did you end up with an EV in first place, did it underperform compared to its spec, was charging an issue, anything you liked? Anything about the car itself you didn't like, e.g. the way it drove or was it boring / white goods motoring?

I've not heard of many people coming out of EV and going back to ICE, but do agree they're not for everyone even now, despite the progress made in last few years.

I quite like the look of older i3 's but with realistic winter range of 70 miles the £ - mile range ratio is absolutely insane. Currently starting at £12k to drive 70 winter miles. Therefore I'm not all doe'y eyed over the EV thing but do think all the info needs to get out there on both sides: fossil and battery but without the cheap headlines.

 

[Guest 4123]

That battery can potentially still be recycled even after all that, long, long after that first tank of petrol was burnt off.

There's no problem with recycling EV batteries. It's not done so much at the moment because it's cheaper to use new materials but that will change.

Electric car battery recycling: all you need to know | DrivingElectric

How recyclable are the batteries from electric cars? The situation isn't perfect, but a number of solutions are being worked on

www.drivingelectric.com

RAB

 

[Rusty911]

I would love an electric vehicle, but they are quite expensive still.
The cheapest option here is a used Nissan Leaf with about 100 km (60 miles) range left, which drops quite a bit in the winter.
One thing that has always bothered me a little bit about cars, just mentioned by @Rusty911 as well, is that cars are often 1.5 ton devices moving only one person around. A motorcycle is not the right choice for everyone, but can be much more efficient in terms of fuel/space used in those circumstances.

What I'd absolutely love is some sort of Twizy+ Same fun and footprint, same layout just with proper windows, heating and ventilation. Sub £10k (so £2k down and £100 PM for the PCP'ers). A real 80 mile range and 60 mph would be fine.

 

[Rusty911]

There's no problem with recycling EV batteries. It's not done so much at the moment because it's cheaper to use new materials but that will change.

Electric car battery recycling: all you need to know | DrivingElectric

How recyclable are the batteries from electric cars? The situation isn't perfect, but a number of solutions are being worked on

www.drivingelectric.com

RAB

Yes, again Fully Charged have visited a recycler. I think it was more a demo that it could be done rather than a profitable high volume enterprise but the concept was proved for sure.

I suspect the market for used EV batteries is so strong it's not too much of an issue yet. Look on eBay as I did before buying dedicated home batteries: used EV batteries are blinking expensive! They are definitely not seen as a troublesome waste product at the moment. They will be, but not yet. There will come a point where scarcity of materials collides with a mountain of old batteries and the economics of recycling will kick in.

Again, let's be fair: a lot of EV bashers are probably happily upgrading their phones each year without a thought about the consequences.

 

[Guest 4123]

As that will give you a round trip range of around 100miles between charge ups.
Have a look at the early Nissan Leafs and what miles they have left on a full but old battery..
The range only get less with cold weather and age of battery..
Just my thoughts really..

Early Leaf batteries are reknowned for degradation. It might make sense to upgrade to better battery technology and greater capacity:

Battery Swaps and Upgrades for Nissan Leaf from Electron Garage

EVA Scotland

www.eva.scot

RAB