Skittish Handling

Ken Long

Member
I’m not sure if I’ve posted this in the right place. It’s more “Handling” than just tyres so please move to the appropriate section!

Bear with me here, I’m trying to give as much info as possible to help remote diagnosis.

We’ve had our A2 (2001, 1.4TDI) since the end of September and we really enjoy it. However, on rough surfaces (which Herefordshire has loads of) the handling is what I would describe as skittish. If we hit a rough patch, or selection of small potholey type things the car seems to skip, and in extreme instances it definitely feels like it’s moving sideways. This is particularly noticeable in the wet but it can happen in the dry. I have noticed it happening when crossing particularly pronounced cats eyes on motorway or dual carriageway driving.

I understand that depending on wheel and tyre combo the A2 can have a firm ride but this is definitely more than that.

On smooth roads (where such things exist…) the car tracks straight and true. There’s no crabbing or pulling from the steering, and there are no vibrations through the steering wheel. When parked the car sits level.

When we picked the car up there were a few things that needed attention. The two that I think relate to this topic were the CV boots being worn and one tyre being very low, tread-wise. (There are no steering or suspension related advisories on the MoT now.)

We had new CV joints and boots fitted and I went to a local tyre place to get two new tyres fitted. Budget didn’t permit fitting top end tyres at this point so two Kumho Ecowing 175/60 R15s were fitted to the front which left two Landsail LS388 175/60 R15s on the rear. I realise that these are not the best tyres in the world! Pressure wise, they’re running around the mid-30s psi.

So, questions:

  • Could the car’s skittish handling simply be down to poor tyres?
  • If so what would the A2OC Hivemind recommend? I’d rather not spend huge money! Also, we don’t have a set of winter wheels so I would be looking for an all year option if possible.
  • Are 175/60s the right size for this car? When I popped the filler flap open to check suggested PSI, the information given was for 155/70-15 tyres. Would a narrow profile suit the car better?
  • What PSI is suggested for 175/60s?
If it’s not the tyres, what should I investigate? Although the car has a full service history, it didn’t come with any receipts for work done. So it is possible that the shocks need replacing. Could they be responsible for skippy handling? And again, what replacements would you suggest? To be honest, time and skill mean I would probably need to get this done at a garage, so recommendations in Herefordshire or Gloucestershire would be great!

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it best to give as much information as possible.

Cheers in advance.

Ken
 
I would have preferred 175/65 but obviously you had to match the rears otherwise the traction control gets upset. The Kumho tyres are quite acceptable and I found them very little different from Michelins (or was it Dunlops) that I used before, they looked the same and felt the same, perhaps a slight difference in feel under heavy braking. I can't speak for Landsails, never used them, but I have proven that moving from a set of worn, mixed budget tyres to a new decent set of quality can make a huge differnce in handling.
Is your tyre wear even -that will give clues as to whether there is an alignment problem anywhere.
Tyre pressures are a lot of personal preference and will influence you you want the car to feel, but broadly if you're in the middle of the given range it's a good starting point and you won't go too far wrong.
I certainly wouldn't go for a narrower tyre, nor a wider one on standard wheels.
 
I wouldn't, just drive within the limits of the tyres and upgrade them them they wear out.
I've just taught one son to drive in a Polo, before allowing him to drive the A2 I warned him about the wayward handling. I'm about to teach my second son in the A2 and the emphasis is going to be very much on keeping a wayward car safe.
The problem is, our local roads are horrible. Both my wife and I are sensible drivers but if you catch a rough patch of road (particularly in the wet) on a corner it can be quite disconcerting as the car skips to the side. It doesn't feel particularly safe, and we might only be travelling at 30 or 40mph.
 
I'd be looking looking at the shock absorbers. Sounds to me like a distinct lack of damping.
Check by putting your weight on each corner, to push it down, then see how it comes back up, when your weight is removed. Both up and down should be damped, as the shockers are two way damping. Front ones probably first priority. But there's a fair chance that they're original, if not, maybe very budget replacements. As long as the tyres are at the correct pressure, they should not cause the symptoms you describe (imo).
Mac.
 
@Ken Long , at risk of being drummed out, I would say your description is what I’ve been experiencing for 20 years. Handling is not an A2 strength unless you modify it.
Apparently they can be made go cart like.
Mine is standard, and handling is not far off a go cart. Can be hussled on the twisty bits like the best of them. The ride is go cart like too , (ie firm). Not to everyone's taste, but fine by me.
Mac.
 
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The first thing I'd do is reduce the tyre pressures a bit: I find 33psi front and 31 rear works OK for me, so that if they were to go down a couple of psi with ambient temperature difference they're still no more than marginally underinflated. You could go a little lower.

I'm also familiar with the car jumping slightly sideways if upset by a rough surface on a corner. There's a slip-road onto the A41 on my regular commute home where I get exactly that when accelerating off the roundabout. Since late 2020 I'm on matching midrange tyres all round (Toyo Proxes CF-2) and my suspension was refreshed all round by WOM earlier the same year. I think the shocks are by Sachs.

To be honest, I think it's just what you get on a light car. Grippy soft-compound low-profile tyres and gas shock absorbers might help it noticeably but that would be a lot of money to spend, and the ride quality would suffer.
 
My initial thought reading the first post was that the tyre pressures may be too high (in combination with 1 or more shocks being tired) - especially if a pump with a dud pressure gauge has been used to fill them at some point (this happened to me with a foot pump and a student car about 25 years ago) - this can introduce all sorts of road-surface-provoked sideways skipping in corners.

Our first Citigo was very skippy in corners for the first few hundred miles with no-one in the back seat - whereupon I checked and found the rear tyres were something daft like 55psi on my own Audi pump - I assume a legacy of car transporter settings and this having been missed on handover. Brought down to whatever the indicated pressure was inside the fuel cover and it sorted it right out.
 
Pressure wise, they're running around the mid-30s psi.
Might be worth double checking the pressure with another gauge. I had 2 new tyres fitted once and then headed across Salisbury Plain taking a corner at high speed but no faster than before. Lost the back and I thought that was the end me and the A2. Turned out the tyres were well over inflated. No doubt fitter could not tell the difference between psi and bars or their gauges were wrong.
 
so in summary, good tyres inflated to the correct pressure combined with good shock absorbers should sort this - what you’re describing is not normal behaviour according to my experience - and there are a lot of bad twisty roads down here in Devon.
 
Tyre reviews put tyre brands into four categories: premium, mid-range, economy, and budget.

Kumho sits in the 2nd from top category, so quite a good brand.

Four tyre categories
Premium
: Bridgestone, Continental, Michelin
Mid Range: Kumho, Falken, Firestone, Nokian, Uniroyal, Vredestein, Yokohama
Economy: Landsail
Budget

Kumho have been fitted as original equipment to some cars, so again quite a good brand.

Kumho Ecowing ES31 175/60R15 81H (Euro label C B 70dB)

According to tyre reviews, Landsail is in the Economy category, so one up from the bottom.

Are you having these skipping problems in cold, damp weather? If so, it may be the Landsail tyres.

I would never fit economy or budget tyres to a car as its a false economy, especially as mid-range tyres can often be found for a very reasonable price such as in the above link.

175/60R15 is generally regarded as an expensive tyre size (for 15" tyres), but those Kumhos are surprisingly affordable.
 
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in extreme instances it definitely feels like it’s moving sideways.
This made me think 🧐
My A2 had an issue last year, which came out again when I was driving to the airport last week, and on the way back too. I'm probably gonna start a thread about it on the weekend when I have a proper look, but here it is.
The brakes would apply randomly last year for few days, some even had shaked the car, but there was no fault code, not even eml, and it went away, brakes looked fine, so I didn't do much.
Last week on the way to the airport and back as well, 2.5 hours drive each way, the brake applied itself once which triggered sings&beeps on the dashboard. I was really stressed out on the way there at 5am, happened only few miles from the airport as well. Fortunately the car drove good apart from that, but on the way back that issue appeared again, when I was doing 40mph and turning, so it wasn't fun, when the car suddenly started pulling the opposite way... I was looking at the dashboard full of warning lights for over 1.5 hour. It was a long and stressful drive, worrying it might happen again while lorries/cars drive past me. Fortunately it only happened once each way, and I and my A2 got back all good, but this needs to be sorted for sure.

The warning lights disappeared when the engine was started again, no eml fault code shown, so after I got back, I'd actually scanned the brake system and bingo! It gave me 2 fault codes, see picture, both to do with traction control.
I've done bit of research, found great infos, and the bad yaw sensor can activate the traction control, thinking the car is sliding, when it's actually not, hence pulling to the side. So I'm gonna check it on Sunday, it's next to the passanger seat lower front cover, and see if the issue is visible or the unit needs to be changed. I hope this helps, your A2 might've similar issues.
20230209_215334.jpg
 
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Doesn't matter what tyres you have, they need to be in constant contact with the road. That's what suspension does.
Mac.
 
Doesn't matter what tyres you have...
Mac.

It absolutely does matter what tyres you have. Here are ten tyre reviews for the Landsail LS388 tyres that the OP has. The reviews read like some kind of nightmare, with one reviewer saying, "if you value your life and safety please consider a better tyre".

Ten tyre reviews for Landsail LS388 tyres...truly shocking!

(1) Landsail LS388 225/40R18 tyre reviewed on 26/7/17

These tyres are awful. Driving on wet days a very nervous experience.

(2) Landsail LS388 225/45 R17 tyre reviewed on 29/12/17
These tyres are absolutely terrible. Car felt unresponsive and wobbly.

(3) Landsail LS388 195/50R16 tyre reviewed on 6/9/18
Traversing a roundabout in even the most lightly moist of conditions is akin to sliding across an ice rink.

(4) Landsail LS388 215/50R17 tyre reviewed on 27/1/19
At the first sight of heavy rain traction was hindered and just about every sharp turn at speed caused the front to loose control. Setting off from junctions in the wet caused wheel spin at just about every given opportunity. Both tyres are starting to show cracks along the sidewalls.

(5) Landsail LS388 205/45R17 tyre reviewed on 28/3/20
Car was unstable, didn't grip the road, Too much understeer, felt the rear end was going in a different direction. Felt extremely uncomfortable driving with these tyres.

(6) Landsail LS388 235/55R17 tyre reviewed on 20/7/20
Wet grip is poor at lower temperatures, and snow grip is non existent. One of the tyres had a split and could have blown out at any minute.

(7) Landsail LS388 165/60R14 tyre reviewed on 23/12/20
Lack of grip in both dry and wet. I do not feel safe driving my car in wet on these tyres.

(8) Landsail LS388 165/60R14 tyre reviewed on 16/7/22
After 4000 miles the tyre had a blowout not to mention the cracking and what felt like the tyres no longer being round anymore. If you value your life and safety please consider a better tyre.

(9) Landsail LS388 235/40R18 tyre reviewed on 15/8/22
Had 4 of these fitted within a few months of each other, tpms light came on on the motorway, stopped as soon as possible to find no air would go in the tyre, changed for space saver to discover the side wall had come away from the cord inner side wall, 2 months later exactly the same issue again, 2 months after that car fails mot because of guess what, yep inner side walls both showing cords how on earth i never had a blow out with all 4 tyres like this i'll never know.

(10) Landsail LS388 205/55R16 tyre reviewed on 11/12/22
These are the worst tyres I have ever experienced. In the wet there is very little grip, no feedback and aquaplanes in the smallest amount of standing water. In the recent snow there was absolutely zero grip.
 
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Landsails are notoriously known as 'Ditchfinders', whilst they look good, I can honestly say that I couldn't wait to get them off one of my A2's, the difference really was noticeable...and my confidence came back by the bucketful on the country roads up here.
 
Personally I swear by Falken, they seem to suit the car well both in wet and dry. Cannot recommend B&F Autos in West Hounslow more highly. Know their A2's very well indeed and do not charge stupid money. They are very close to the tube for getting to and from. Geographically not the best, whilst I'm writing this I think maybe WOM Automotive in Stoke on Trent might be a better bet for you in Hereford.

Best of luck.
 
I'm not suggesting that cheap tyres are OK, good tyres are never cheap, but are vastly superior to the likes of Landsail, etc.
But, it's the suspension, especially the shockers, that keep the tyres in contact with the road. If the suspension is not working properly, the tyre will be loosing contact with the road, on anything but a billiard table. So, most of the time on the UK roads. That results in skittish handling, with the car moving off line when airborne, and pulling back when the tyres hit the road.
My point is even the best tyres can't work unless the suspension is fully functional.
The thread has tyre recommendations by the dozen, all good advice, but the OP needs to establish the health of the suspension.
Mac.
 
I have done the unscientific corner bounce test and it didn't seem to highlight any obvious problems. I have a friend who is an excellent mechanic (who has also owned an A2 in the past) and I'm going to ask him to pop the car up on his lift and have a look at the shocks and related hardware.
In the meantime, we're off to Scotland next month and I'm not sure we fancy 1200 miles on Landsails so I think we might get a couple of new (better!) tyres to replace them.
 
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