Sloppy gear change mechanism

Clackers

Member
So I completed the work today. there was loads of debris and sloppiness in the gear-changer mechanism (down from the gear-knob).
Here's a picture of the removed component and its replacement :-

View attachment 69243

Did a test drive .... The change IS more positive, BUT, the problem is still present ! You can make every change in every direction EXCEPT 5th gear down to 4th. It's just like there isn't a slot for it! You get to half-way in the change and you just can't then pull the lever down into the 4th gear position! So what's wrong and how do I put it right? I do have another brand-new tower ..... I've also done the cable adjustment procedure. I'd so like to get this sorted ......

David
Wow, that is one super clean mechanism Dave!! My next suggestion would be the tower, although, it has been muted on this thread that it could well be the synchromesh...time to get your spanners out again pal.
Andy
 

DJ 190

A2OC Donor
@DJ 190
try double declutching (Into neutral from 5th then clutch up then blip the throttle and then instantly change down using the clutch) and if it goes down from 5th to 4th then, that indicates (unfortunately) a gearbox rather than selector issue.
Steve B
I've tried that and it hasn't made any difference. (double de-clutching) So I come down from 5th gear and it gets to mid-position and that's it! It is just like there isn't a slot for 4th gear! Even some force doesn't get it to go down to the 4th gear location. So the only way to get 4th gear is up into 3rd and then down into 4th. As I've said, every other change seems possible, up/down, it's only that one that is impossible! So it's tower replacement next. I've got the latest tower, so I'll also need an associated cup. Details are in this thread : https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/new-vag-tower-shifter-help-required.41276/ Let's see what that does to get the gear-changing fully functional ....

David
 

Birchall

Dick Chown Award 2016
I've tried that and it hasn't made any difference. (double de-clutching) So I come down from 5th gear and it gets to mid-position and that's it! It is just like there isn't a slot for 4th gear! Even some force doesn't get it to go down to the 4th gear location. So the only way to get 4th gear is up into 3rd and then down into 4th. As I've said, every other change seems possible, up/down, it's only that one that is impossible! So it's tower replacement next. I've got the latest tower, so I'll also need an associated cup. Details are in this thread : https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/new-vag-tower-shifter-help-required.41276/ Let's see what that does to get the gear-changing fully functional ....

David
Hi David. You are describing the exact symptoms of a synchro in the grearbox being the cause. As you change from 3rd to 4th a different synchro ring is used.
If it was the tower or the adjustment then 4th would be difficult to engage both ways.
if you are blipping the throttle on the downshift (with the clutch engaged) then it really should engage easily. You can even change down like that without pressing the clutch at all because you are matching the speed of the 3rdcog with the 4th cog.

I just hope that the tower swap works, it is just that this is not cheap, especially if it doesn’t fix it. But my fingers are crossed for you.
Steve B
 

DJ 190

A2OC Donor
Thanks Steve ..... I'll go out again tomorrow and do a few more checks. No, I'll go now! So it's clutch engaged, get the mid position, release clutch, re-engage clutch, blip throttle, try to go down into 4th gear slot. Is that correct? It's just that there doesn't seem to be any way to get directly from 5th gear to 4th! I've purchased the tower anyway and it is said to be of a superior design, so I might as well fit it! However, if the gearbox IS defective, then all the work could have been done in one go? Maybe a visit to WOM? Let me know what is the exact action for the gear change that you've proposed, Steve

David
 

Birchall

Dick Chown Award 2016
Move the stick from 5th to neutral (clutch depressed )

when in neutral clutch up blip the throttle,
then quickly depress the clutch and engage fourth.

Steve B
 

Bryn

Member
Are the ball ends worn for the selector cables and the bracket secure on the gearbox?
the tower moves a bit but I don’t know what is right and what is wrong....no idea re the ball ends ... where’s the nearest expert to Leicestershire :oops:

Ive got a mate that usually fixes my cars....he’s a self employed mechanic... trouble is he usually asks his customers to get all the bits and He does the work... If I don’t know what is causing the sloppy gear change it makes it difficult
 

Robin_Cox

Member
the tower moves a bit but I don’t know what is right and what is wrong....no idea re the ball ends ... where’s the nearest expert to Leicestershire :oops:

Ive got a mate that usually fixes my cars....he’s a self employed mechanic... trouble is he usually asks his customers to get all the bits and He does the work... If I don’t know what is causing the sloppy gear change it makes it difficult
Hi Bryn,

for a moment I had to go back and check if I'd asked the question, but I have. Have you watched the various dieselgeek videos about sloppy shifting mechanisms? There are about 8 locations where there are bushes that can work loose with wear that you need to check, as well as ball shims for the base of the gearlever before you get into more in depth issues requiring bigger replacement parts than plastic bushes and shims. At the gearlever end - there are a cable mount bushing, and a pivot bushing for each cable. At the far end of the cable, there are cable attachments (ball joints), and pivot bushings for the bell cranks used to move the counterweight vertically and the one that rotates it axially to engage the shifting mechanisms in the box. For each pivot and attachment bushing, there is a movement you can perform with the cables unattached and gaiters / covers removed to expose the components that identify that a given one is or isn't needing to be replaced.

In the same way that most electronics threads suggest that you get a VCDS reading done before anyone can give significant advice, again in this situation, most folk here can only offer suggestions based on their experience : it is only once you accumulate a list of possibles and then go through these stepwise eliminating them one by one that you can make headway because most people here are not mind-readers.

Seriously hope we can help you sort this out, but you need to help us help you if that makes sense.
 

Andrew

A2OC Donor
the tower moves a bit but I don’t know what is right and what is wrong....no idea re the ball ends ... where’s the nearest expert to Leicestershire :oops:

Ive got a mate that usually fixes my cars....he’s a self employed mechanic... trouble is he usually asks his customers to get all the bits and He does the work... If I don’t know what is causing the sloppy gear change it makes it difficult
Nearest expert? You are not that far from WOM, THE acclaimed A2 specialist.


Andy
 

depronman

A2OC Donor
Thanks Steve ..... I'll go out again tomorrow and do a few more checks. No, I'll go now! So it's clutch engaged, get the mid position, release clutch, re-engage clutch, blip throttle, try to go down into 4th gear slot. Is that correct? It's just that there doesn't seem to be any way to get directly from 5th gear to 4th! I've purchased the tower anyway and it is said to be of a superior design, so I might as well fit it! However, if the gearbox IS defective, then all the work could have been done in one go? Maybe a visit to WOM? Let me know what is the exact action for the gear change that you've proposed, Steve

David
Hi Dave,
I'm affraid to say that Steve B is spot on, this is almost certainly a failed syncro ring deep in the bowles of the gearbox, the tower change will make no difference to your problems. You should be able to get from 5th to 4th by double d clutching as Steve as suggested, however if you are not familiar with the technique then its difficult to say this will prove the failed syncro theory, the timing of the gear change, blipping the throttle and to what level and associate clutch and 4th gear selection are all somewhat critical to a successful double d clutch execution - a bit like learning to drive all over again

Paul
 

philward

A2OC Donor
Hi David. You are describing the exact symptoms of a synchro in the grearbox being the cause. As you change from 3rd to 4th a different synchro ring is used.
If it was the tower or the adjustment then 4th would be difficult to engage both ways.
Steve B
Is that correct? I ask because I recently stripped and rebuilt a VAG box. Each gear had its own dedicated syncro, 4th would use the same syncro when being changed to either up or down. The difference I guess is that it is worn and copes better when the input shaft is decreasing in speed 3 to 4 rather than increasing in speed 5 to 4?
It was my first, and hopefully last, box rebuild; just checking my understanding of what I saw.
 

Birchall

Dick Chown Award 2016
Is that correct? I ask because I recently stripped and rebuilt a VAG box. Each gear had its own dedicated syncro, 4th would use the same syncro when being changed to either up or down. The difference I guess is that it is worn and copes better when the input shaft is decreasing in speed 3 to 4 rather than increasing in speed 5 to 4?
It was my first, and hopefully last, box rebuild; just checking my understanding of what I saw.
The difference is due to the speed of the gears. So even though the same synchro is used changing up you have the engine spinning faster (due to the lower gear so it engages easier), when changing down the revs on the engine are slower and so it is harder to mesh. That is why double declutching works on a worn or non-existent synchro.

Steve B
 

Bryn

Member
I think my plan is to get it to WOM sometime.... got to do a bit of saving first and give them a call ...it’s not got any worse since I got it, but I think it’s worth getting sorted despite the miles ... ..thanks for the ideas :cool:
 

audio

A2OC Donor
Done a bit of tinkering today. The shift tower itself is very smooth and crisp. It's the lower front to back cable tight as hell... Next, selector housing comes off...

 

audifan

A2OC Donor
Can you remove the front to back cable and raise it up. Then pour down the cable length 3 in 1 oil using a syringe or similar? Check for crushing or wear on the outer covering.
 

audio

A2OC Donor
Can you remove the front to back cable and raise it up. Then pour down the cable length 3 in 1 oil using a syringe or similar? Check for crushing or wear on the outer covering.
Done that, not much of a difference and no crushing. 🤔
 
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