The Misfire Struggle (1.6 FSI - BAD)

katalin21k

New Member
@Update
I've inspected all cables that goes to each coils plus the 2 other sensors. All cables are ok not broken do to aging and replaced the strip that cover them with new one.
IMG_20200404_122601-1.jpg I've looked inside of the jack on all 4 wires and they are sealed.IMG_20200404_12261-1.jpg

The 4 cables on each jack got : 1 -11,75v 2- 12,25v 3- 0v 4- 12,25v

I found this IMG_20200404_131559-1.jpg on the left side of engineIMG_20200404_165343-1.jpg.
For what i can see is broken or it should look like that square not round?
Also i went to clean engine bay, been a mess and now look a bit better so i can monitor if oil leaks.

This is the starting car cluster screens:
IMG_20200404_165203-1.jpg 1st turn IMG_20200404_165221-1.jpg 2nd turn IMG_20200404_165304-1.jpg engine running.
The check engine light appear when it need power and i've just reset the error after i cleaned the bay, ofc will appear very shortly no worry and i will post screen.

I did not checked the cam follower on the high pressure pump, no time today and i'll get an vcds cable in 3 days with 2020 soft to have it on my own ad not to get it from my friend each time(hex 2 i believe).

I've did compression test too (12-15 required on this engine type). Cylinder 1-2-4 got 14,5 but cylinder 3 got only 11. Not too bad just -1 from minimal but that means bent valves?

@update2 after more research online i've found engine characteristics and it seems is 10-15 and lowest can be 7 LOOOOL
1.6fsi-bad.png
Also fire order is 1-3-4-2...

Tested alternator it should gives 14v + mine gives 13,4v-13,7v not great but not too bad also.

Car runs ok 15-20 min until oil gets hot after that is not pushing at all even if i floor it in 2-3-4 gear.

ps: I'm not a mechanic just a computer guy that tries to fix his car :( this is a new world to me, a dirty and bad smelling one.

At least is not doing this:

 

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nalaver

Member
Hi ,not sure I can help ,I do maintain my old fsi ,it requires a fair bit of maintenance , you mentioned it runs poorly when hot , so first stab at helping ,, I assume you have VCDS or similar ,disconnect the EGR valve and test ie drive car . just a bit of info misfire at idle or low revs is likely valve related like carbon valves (worse when cold) lifters, air leaks , at higher rpm spark breakdown or fuel pressure issues ....just to add after reading your post , I do not think it is valve or bottom end related , ignition or fuel , does fuel pump sound normal (one in tank) ? the more jerky the more I suspect fuel delivery , so if you think it is a cylinder what does scanner show ? .you could drive with a cylinder disconnected (do not pull coil pack on and off whilst engine is running or it might blow coil pack . A hot injector could fail at higher frequency, also coil pack could fail when hot . I would start with disconnecting EGR as this circuit only works when engine warmed and should switch out under WOT.......just to add more information compression test as you mentioned earlier is a dynamic test that does not tell what is faulty ,so if the valve seats are pitted and lifter does not bleed down this cylinder shall show a low reading , if the valve or valves were an issue it would always have a poor idle but not very lumpy as the compression is low on that cylinder. If the piston or rings or bore are not sealing normally then you would have excessive sump pressure and possibly oil leaks ,this would sometimes be associated with piston slap when cold . So if no oil consumption ,smoke ,sump pressure rule out piston issues ,if you need to confirm look at spark plug for signs of oil , if you want to check valve for leaking you need to do a leak down test and not a compression test , this shall give an exact indication of cause of leakage ....

Cheers AL
 
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Nye

Member
Have you had a look at the wiring to each coil in the loom like I mentioned above ? 5 min job..
I did this visual inspection but found no new faulty wires. I did repair some wires with perished insulation which were on cylinders 1 & 2, near the coils, (OBDII stated misfire was on 3 & 4) which didn't cure the misfire. Then I took it to my usual mechanic who investigated briefly before having to stop work (for coronavirus). On the way back from collecting the car I cancelled the EML, which has yet to return. Admittedly, I've only driven it to the supermarket three times since so it hasn't had a long trip. The only change I noticed was that he had tidied up the wires, pushing them into the plastic guide channels and engaging the securing clips.
 

katalin21k

New Member
@nalaver
I've recived the vcds today a hex 2 interface from ross-tech(with 20.04 soft). I work tonight but tomorrow i'll do the scan. What should i look for?IMG_20200407_15192-1.jpg
 

nalaver

Member
Hi Katalin , firstly get acquainted with the device , it took me some time to figure out the smaller details. So what to look for ? You want to look for erratic results firstly ,then data that is out of specification, now here do not get too pedantic in other words if timing for example is out by 1 degree .
Firstly have a look at codes and here I mean fault codes some will cause a light to come on some will not, this does not mean they are not serious !
I you are able to send data for us to read or simply take a picture of screen and post . Often diagnosis is only successful with accurate data, good eyesight, good hearing ,memory and then understanding the systems , so if you can supply all the first ones I shall help with last ..
Cheers Al
 

PlasticMac

Member
Most Windows pcs have Notepad installed. If you open a new Notepad file, (.txt), then, in the final results screen of a VCDS scan, click on " Copy" then paste into the open .txt file. You can then share the results by uploading the .txt here.
Mac.
 

katalin21k

New Member
Hi guys. This is the scan from my golf. When i went from work to home i've reseted the erors with my old elm327 so the check engine didn't show yet on this scan, i still need to run a bit in the city so it would pop (unfortunately i can't move freely do to covid).

Fault codes:

17439 - Intake Manifold Tuning Valve (N316)
P1031 - 35-00 - Setpoint Not Reached
I think is the actuator from that valve n316, is a rod that move the flap , i've found on a vw forum that rod is a common fail and breaks. This handle vacuum so i think this is the reason why i don't have power when higher rpm.

01131 - Control Circuit for Turn Signals
25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent (My turn signals work ok, but idk if so is a bad thing)
00913 - Window Regulator Switch; Front Right Driver (E81) (driver window always move so slow)
29-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

The missfire error is missing, i'll do another scan after it pops (sometimes even when i start the engine.

I also found this under the car :( IMG_20200408_142040-1.jpg

And also where is Egr located so i can remove the jack? egr location.jpg
 

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nalaver

Member
Hi guys. This is the scan from my golf. When i went from work to home i've reseted the erors with my old elm327 so the check engine didn't show yet on this scan, i still need to run a bit in the city so it would pop (unfortunately i can't move freely do to covid).

Fault codes:

17439 - Intake Manifold Tuning Valve (N316)
P1031 - 35-00 - Setpoint Not Reached
I think is the actuator from that valve n316, is a rod that move the flap , i've found on a vw forum that rod is a common fail and breaks. This handle vacuum so i think this is the reason why i don't have power when higher rpm.

01131 - Control Circuit for Turn Signals
25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent (My turn signals work ok, but idk if so is a bad thing)
00913 - Window Regulator Switch; Front Right Driver (E81) (driver window always move so slow)
29-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

The missfire error is missing, i'll do another scan after it pops (sometimes even when i start the engine.

I also found this under the car :( View attachment 62971

And also where is Egr located so i can remove the jack? View attachment 62972
 

nalaver

Member
Hi guys. This is the scan from my golf. When i went from work to home i've reseted the erors with my old elm327 so the check engine didn't show yet on this scan, i still need to run a bit in the city so it would pop (unfortunately i can't move freely do to covid).

Fault codes:

17439 - Intake Manifold Tuning Valve (N316)
P1031 - 35-00 - Setpoint Not Reached
I think is the actuator from that valve n316, is a rod that move the flap , i've found on a vw forum that rod is a common fail and breaks. This handle vacuum so i think this is the reason why i don't have power when higher rpm.

01131 - Control Circuit for Turn Signals
25-10 - Unknown Switch Condition - Intermittent (My turn signals work ok, but idk if so is a bad thing)
00913 - Window Regulator Switch; Front Right Driver (E81) (driver window always move so slow)
29-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

The missfire error is missing, i'll do another scan after it pops (sometimes even when i start the engine.

I also found this under the car :( View attachment 62971

And also where is Egr located so i can remove the jack? View attachment 62972
 

nalaver

Member
Hi Katalin, 1. EGR is close to throttle flap(at rear) .
2. I do not think manifold flap fault is going to cause a jerking symptom .
3. The manifold flap is predominantly for low speed tumbling air (the lower section as 2 parts one area for lower rpm and high tumble ,the other for higher rpm ) I am not sure where the switch over point is .
If you try to move this flap it is on the right hand side (if you are in vehicle looking forward ) close to inlet manifold .it should move in and out about 10mm ,it is operated with vacuum ,this is easy to test .you can drive car with or without and see it it makes any difference .
4 . In VCDS, go to meauring blocks and look at egr data,air flow ,fuel data ,also look for test for flap ..... drive with a friend holding laptop .
5 finally lets not waste money , if you are not sure of something lets assume what is possible ie anything is possible untill we have all the facts.
6. summarize the faults you experience as if you know nothing about history of vehicle and drove it for the first time .
In picture it shows oil leak whereis this from ?
Al
 

Andrew

A2OC Donor
Hi @katalin21k,

I don't think the P1031/ 'Setpoint Not Reached' is the cause of your misfire and is a seperate problem. It generally makes little difference to driving the car, only leaves performance a bit flat and costing a little extra fuel consumption and of course lighting the nuisance EML.

Your VW forum friends are right, the fault is often, but not always, a breakage in the flap activation mechanism, but this is not the fault but a symptom of the cause which is the flaps seizing up with carbon build up. Lots to read on here about this if you search but this thread eventually focuses on diagnosis...


Good luck with the misfire.

Andy
 

PlasticMac

Member
Agree with @Andrew, don't worry about P1031. That's not related to the miss fire. My guess is that the miss fire is not even an FSI specific thing.
Mac.
 

katalin21k

New Member
@Andrew
I know is not related to missfire fault but after 2 days searching the vw forums i've found a guy who got the problem and is related to carbon deposits over time and yes idk the history before i've buy it even is from germany and suppose to be a cleaner country and better fuel. The problem is the lack of power on 2,5k+ rpm and the shaking of the car, even if i floor it at 2-3-4 gear is hard to move. That piece is like 30 euros new not whole part wich is 200 so vcds already saved me from throwing cash. I also need to disconnect the egr valve to check the difference/ same guy said the car s complete difference without egr.
Tomorrow for sure the missire will pop when ill go to work and ill do a new scan after (that's the real problem) many solved it by replacing the injectors but is like 160 euro/piece. I will not buy anything untill i'm sure is a fault part.
Regarding the oil leak idk, i've washed the car 4-5 days ago just to check stuffs like that and idk i've put 3,6l oil in her and is require 3.4l that because where i live is in a ramp , idk ill monitor the leak after all but i've checked 2-3 days ago the coils and no oil in there, just on 3rd spark plug a bit of smoke just all.

Thanks for help guys.
 

nalaver

Member
@Andrew
I know is not related to missfire fault but after 2 days searching the vw forums i've found a guy who got the problem and is related to carbon deposits over time and yes idk the history before i've buy it even is from germany and suppose to be a cleaner country and better fuel. The problem is the lack of power on 2,5k+ rpm and the shaking of the car, even if i floor it at 2-3-4 gear is hard to move. That piece is like 30 euros new not whole part wich is 200 so vcds already saved me from throwing cash. I also need to disconnect the egr valve to check the difference/ same guy said the car s complete difference without egr.
Tomorrow for sure the missire will pop when ill go to work and ill do a new scan after (that's the real problem) many solved it by replacing the injectors but is like 160 euro/piece. I will not buy anything untill i'm sure is a fault part.
Regarding the oil leak idk, i've washed the car 4-5 days ago just to check stuffs like that and idk i've put 3,6l oil in her and is require 3.4l that because where i live is in a ramp , idk ill monitor the leak after all but i've checked 2-3 days ago the coils and no oil in there, just on 3rd spark plug a bit of smoke just all.

Thanks for help guys.
 

nalaver

Member
Hi Katalin, next time you drive your Golf time how long it takes before the symtoms show ,record the temperure(cold -warm or hot) ,type of jerk (is it violent or slight ) at what rpm ,what throttle position .does the car smoke ,make rattling sound , if you then stop is idle normal ?? regarding carbon (this engine suffers from this problem ) it would normally affect idle first ,then the EGR valve ,then the flap ,all can be cleaned with camera ,vacuum pipe and solvent .Note do not let the fluid leak into the combustion chamber, be aware of fire risk !!!!
Cheers Al just to add misfire could well be carbon related !!!!!! Also 3rd cylinder plug had lower compression ,you said smoke on plug what do you mean by smoke ,so my guess is 3rd cylinder valves not sealing together with flap and egr valve ,could be simple cleaning job almost no parts required
 
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katalin21k

New Member
Bad thing cars under 2003 got no CAN and u need to manually select them to test what u need :(
Outside temperature 20 C.
Jerking at idle badly if the climatronic is off and a bit smooth if is on but it is still noticeable.
No increased smoke, bad smelling smoke or white/blue it is normal amount.
The symptoms pop right after i start the car, but the check engine pops under load (ak 3k+ rpm or after i start the car sometimes) and after car getting hotter 15 min+ (water termostat is ok 90 in 10 min).
I made 2 videos just to show you how car behave 10 min after start, i couldn't move more around the block just so the check engine to pop (cops).
I'll drive the car tomorrow to work and for sure will popup.
The 3rd spark plug had a small black smoke amount near the edge but not on the small cylinder in middle. I swapped with 2nd.
I've made 2 videos:

and 2nd with the idle behavior:

 
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nalaver

Member
Hi Katalin, just to confirm ,idles rough cold, jerking under light throttle .does the idle improve when hotter ??
Have you been able to disconnect EGR electrical plug yet (do not force it off ).(press in then depress tab then slide off .
Also what are air flow readings, not sure what block ,I am talking about g per second air flow measured by air flow meter ,so look if changes and what is does when throttle is applied ...quick test for carbon buildup ......spray small amount of quickstart spray into inlet and see if idle normalizes ....... be careful non to cause fire ......
Cheers Al
 

katalin21k

New Member
Guys i've found a very interesting video about carbon buildup that affect all (T)FSI engines and in our cases valves and egr. Even is an v10 is still an fsi engine and manifest same problem starting to missfire on cylinder 3-4 and goes to all in the end + the most common failure cheap segments.


After watching this my concern is, do the cleaner really don't affect engine if is running and also if it melt the carbon build, does it affect the aluminium block? cus the last thing you want is a crack in the block.
That BG product is hard to get but i've found a Liqui Moly Valve cleaner for 15 euros, think is kinda same but does it do the job? and how realible the engine gonna be after doing this. Also the full pack from liqui moly but again do they work?

 

nalaver

Member
Hi Katalin, run the the engine at idle ,then spray some cleaner into inlet manifold after air flow meter look for a pipe to administer .... spray small amount ..engine will splutter then recover then repeat process ,so spray for 1.5 seconds wait 6 seconds repeat ,then take rpm to 1200 rpm and do same roughly 30 times .Then drive car and see if it has improved.
Cheers Al
 
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