Toe In / Toe Out: A2's at front? Odd handling!

Another update: sub-frame bolts are all tight, very tight. Couldn't budge them at all even with a breaker bar, no signs of fretting either. I think that one's out.

Also, tried a different pair of front wheels / tyres (my light 15's which btw, really improved the ride): no difference.

I've got to jack it up again this morning to swap the wheels back over, so will crowbar the rear A-arm bushes, although they look fine and when shoving the wheels quickly rearwards (my usual quick and dirty test) they feel absolutely rock solid. This time I'll also try to remember to leave one wheel on the deck and play with the other one, then swap and see if I can feel anything odd in the diff (which I simply can't see could be the issue tbh).

Since the jacks are going to be out, I'll do as @spike suggests and examine those rear beam bushes as well.

Frankly if that doesn't reveal anything I think I'm getting close to the point of doing all the work and sending it in for a full alignment. I would feel a bit of a failure though as I've successfully aligned all of my cars including TR's, 911's and E21 BM's. You'd have thought those would have been rather more fussy ?
 
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Well: I'm flummoxed!

Other than a full alignment check, I've run out of ideas:

Toe adjusted to what shows on my (freshly calibrated) Dunlops as total toe in of 10 minutes.

Front wheels / tyres changed.

When jacked one side at a time, diff behaves exactly same as the two FSi's sitting alongside.

All bushes have been tried with crowbar, nothing: front A-arm, rear A-arm, rear beam.

Top mounts stripped, checked, greased and reassembled.

New shocks (not that I'd suspect those anyway).

No noises that coincide with symptoms.

No excess steering friction and self centres fine.

Subframe and consoles dead tight.

No play at road-wheels either on grease-plates or in the air.

Car otherwise seems 'O.K.' although I would say it turns in quite sharply which might imply my tracking is actually leaving it toe out ... but no, a jury - rig (will post pic later, you're gonna love it!) suggests if anything I have too much toe in. The bad news is my first try suggested I was coming from heavy toe out, so perhaps that was actually O.K. and my gauges are still off. This is bad because the very reason I started measuring the front was this very problem. E.g. changing tracking again is less likely to sort the issue.

Also, IF it was alignment, I'd have expected putting those narrow tyres at highish inflation would have tamed it, but no, in some circumstances the thing's properly skittish regardless.

Hmm ... ?
 
Barry, have you carefully measured the replacement lower wishbones to check that they are exactly in-spec? Sorry if you mentioned this previously, it’s just that on the mammoth thread on those, it was mentioned I think by @bretti_kivi that some makes are decidedly inferior and even defective at manufacture.
 
As it is a handling issue is the ESP system working correctly. Especially the ESP sensor G419. Anything showing up in a VCDS scan?
 
audifan said:
As it is a handling issue is the ESP system working correctly. Especially the ESP sensor G419. Anything showing up in a VCDS scan?
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As above, brakes aren't cutting in, there is no difference in brake dust side to side, no lights flashing up, nothing in the codes.

I can say the car behaves the same whether you snap off the throttle (in gear, so engine braking) as going from full drive to dipped clutch.
 
dj_efk said:
Barry, have you carefully measured the replacement lower wishbones to check that they are exactly in-spec? Sorry if you mentioned this previously, it’s just that on the mammoth thread on those, it was mentioned I think by @bretti_kivi that some makes are decidedly inferior and even defective at manufacture.
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Well, there's no play, camber looks O.K. at a glance, not tried caster I'll admit and tracking as above.

They were done at the same time by the same garage at the same cost, they also look the same: again, very hard to see how they could be off. Quality looks and feels good.

I think in the absence of anything else, it'll end up having a four wheel alignment.
 
Not sure if it will help but an A2 should be set toe out, like most if not all FWD cars:

Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > A2 > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Wheels, tyres. axle align | Wheel alignment | Wheel alignment specifications

A2 > Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Wheels, tyres. axle align | Wheel alignment | Wheel alignment specifications
workshop-manuals.com

This is a static measurement; under traction the wheels should be parallel. The only way I know to measure under traction is with a Gunson Trakrite:

www.gunson.co.uk

Gunson G4008 Trakrite Wheel Alignment Gauge

Gunson G4008 Trakrite is the simplest, most accurate device for checking the alignment of steering wheels of car and light commercials. It is a roller...
www.gunson.co.uk www.gunson.co.uk

RAB
 
RAB said:
Not sure if it will help but an A2 should be set toe out, like most if not all FWD cars:

Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > A2 > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Wheels, tyres. axle align | Wheel alignment | Wheel alignment specifications

A2 > Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Wheels, tyres. axle align | Wheel alignment | Wheel alignment specifications
workshop-manuals.com

This is a static measurement; under traction the wheels should be parallel. The only way I know to measure under traction is with a Gunson Trakrite:

www.gunson.co.uk

Gunson G4008 Trakrite Wheel Alignment Gauge

Gunson G4008 Trakrite is the simplest, most accurate device for checking the alignment of steering wheels of car and light commercials. It is a roller...
www.gunson.co.uk www.gunson.co.uk

RAB
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Thank you Richard but I'm not convinced that's right: the table (which was referenced early in this thread) shows 4' per wheel which I took to be in as the toe whilst steering is particularly highlighted as toe out, unlike the 'normal' toe. As I said before, in the olden days front drive cars certainly ran toe out at front so they'd be parallel under drive.

The problem with this is when you haul on the brakes you'd slam into huge toe out, exactly what racers set in to destabilise the front. Ask early BMW owners: they had to suffer the same but at the rear!

I've just phoned my local tyre / mot people and they've said it's highly unlikely to be set anything other than toe in.

Frankly the handling is already a bit 'edgy' anyway. Just got a trader friend to take it up the road. He rolled his eyes, assumed it was all a big fuss over nothing. Came back: 'yeah, that's actually really bad.' Verging on dangerous if you were caught out.

Anyway, it's only got an MOT by virtue of the CV19 extension, so I've booked it in next week for a test so we can try it on the shaker lane.

I am very much willing to be corrected on the toe thing, but as per this thread, I appeared to start from a position of toe out (4mm total), which I then changed to toe in: made not the slightest difference. This must imply it's not 'that' sensitive.

The tyre / mot man did suggest I try it under hard braking which I hadn't thought of: if it doesn't do it then, we're talking diff related (impossible surely?), if it does do it, at least the actual drive is removed from the equation.
 
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Hi Barry, the data is correct; it's from Elsawin. If you had a Trakrite, you wouldn't have to worry about toe-in/out; with the steering wheel in the centre position, you just adjust the track on each wheel according to the instrument. The toe figures are meaningless anyway because you don't know how much play you have in the steering. Both our Lupo's used to suffer from tyre wear on the inside edge because VW set the toe-out excessively; Trakrite completely cured it. You need a flat surface to use it. Sounds like you have other problems though.

RAB
 
Well, there's no detectable play in the steering at all but I take your point.

I've no doubt the figure is correct in terms of the number, but wonder why one figure is described as 'toe out' with no comment on the other? I've taken that to mean the opposite: toe in. Now, the tyres that are on it aren't from the car originally, but are feathered on the outer edge (excessive toe in?), but they might have already been like this.

The car certainly has something of a 'tippy-toes' feel at the front.

Anyway, it costs me nothing to try different settings, but I'm pretty sure we've already gone from plenty of 'out' to plenty of 'in', none of which did anything more than straighten the steering wheel. Therefore it doesn't seem to be hugely critical. In terms of the lurching, near enough is probably close enough. I can refine later.

Oddly: it brakes pretty straight.

One suggestion by above trader's mechanic / technician straight away (as has been mooted here by others) was wishbones and associated bushes. Then the tyre / mot people said the same (unprompted).

Even so, I've used a crowbar and then done the same on a handily close FSi with O.K. handling. Honestly they felt the same to me.

BTW, my Dunlops have been the go-to tracking tool in passenger and commercial garages right up to and beyond the introduction of laser systems. Even now lots of people use them, including privateer racers.

They're primitive but effective.

What I will do though is convert the minutes to mm and try the gauges in neutral just in case I'm making a mess of the built-in conversion wheel. I'll just set gauges to straight ahead and then measure the gap at the roadwheel.
 
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1599070561593.png

With the range of settings for each front wheel being -1 to +9 that equates to 1 degree toe out to 9 degrees toe in. With zero being dead ahead parallel. Figures are MINUTES
 
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@Joga that was a serious typo I did YES I meant -1 to +9 MINUTES. That equates to -0.0166 degrees toe out to 0.15 degrees toe in.
Sorry for the earlier confusion.
 
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audifan said:
View attachment 69276
With the range of settings for each front wheel being -1 to +9 that equates to 1 degree toe out to 9 degrees toe in. With zero being dead ahead parallel. Figures are MINUTES
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Thank you Graham, that's most interesting. So referring to Richard's info (which is the same as you posted about 17 years ago (feels like that anyway), the absence of a 'negative' flag of some sort assumes we are positive / toe out?

The bad news here regrettably is I'm pretty sure that where this whole thing started: toe out, yet symptoms were still there.

Now ... as I say, it may well be that I'd misread or misused them and changed from a wildly incorrect toe out to a wildly incorrect toe in, but seems odd that the way it drives just didn't change at all.

I'll take the Dunlops and grease plates into work and change the tracking setting back to negative.

Oh yes: 4' on a 16" rim equals .4mm per wheel: sound about right? As above, I might zero the gauges and use feeler gauge at the rim, just to ensure I'm not doing something silly with the conversion wheel and zeroing device on the Dunlops.
 
RAB said:
Barry, +ve is toe in, -ve toe out:

en.wikipedia.org

Toe (automotive) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

RAB
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That being the case (and this is what I've been asking all along), why does the table you and Graham have referenced give a clear Negative (toe out) indication for the toe at (IIRC) 20 of turn, but doesn't say Negative for toe in normal straight ahead? Or am I missing something?

Obviously I'm quite used to concept of positive or negative camber, but toe is usually described in casual circles as 'in' or 'out', rather than + and - .

Also Richard, does your Gunson tell you what you've actually set? E.g., do you know what you're actually running? If so what, and I'll try that.
 
Toe in, is positive the more toe in from central and a negative is outwards from central ie toe out. In all measurements if there is not a negative sign in front of the measurement then by nature this is a positive value. So the -1 to +9 means 1 minute of negative toe in i.e. toe out and 9 minutes positive therefor 9 minutes toe in. Just think of the full name of what you are measuring. Its not the toe angle it is the toe in angle. Same way camber angle in or + is the measurement so if the wheel top is more towards the center of the car that is the in or +. If the top is more out then that is obviously out or - reading.
In summary more toe in higher positive reading, more camber the higher the positive reading. Or use your thinking on camber and apply it to the front toe in by rotating your thinking by 90 degrees forwards so the plane you are measuring is now horizontal with the top being to the front of the car instead of the top of the wing. Hopefully you can visualise what I am saying. While turning the steering the geometry must change to make the stering work hence the angle changes ( the outside wheel must travel further in a corner ).
 
audifan said:
Toe in, is positive the more toe in from central and a negative is outwards from central ie toe out. In all measurements if there is not a negative sign in front of the measurement then by nature this is a positive value. So the -1 to +9 means 1 minute of negative toe in i.e. toe out and 9 minutes positive therefor 9 minutes toe in. Just think of the full name of what you are measuring. Its not the toe angle it is the toe in angle. Same way camber angle in or + is the measurement so if the wheel top is more towards the center of the car that is the in or +. If the top is more out then that is obviously out or - reading.
In summary more toe in higher positive reading, more camber the higher the positive reading. Or use your thinking on camber and apply it to the front toe in by rotating your thinking by 90 degrees forwards so the plane you are measuring is now horizontal with the top being to the front of the car instead of the top of the wing. Hopefully you can visualise what I am saying. While turning the steering the geometry must change to make the stering work hence the angle changes ( the outside wheel must travel further in a corner ).
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Thank you Graham, you've confirmed exactly what I've been saying, that the figures are saying toe in at optimum settings, counter to Richard's thoughts.

As it happens, when you look up what 4' is in mm on a 16" rim, it's 0.4mm per wheel. Factor in the tolerance and it's basically straight ahead or the tinyest sniff of toe in.

I'll give that a shot but not getting my hopes up.
 
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