Toe In / Toe Out: A2's at front? Odd handling!

Rusty911 said:
That being the case (and this is what I've been asking all along), why does the table you and Graham have referenced give a clear Negative (toe out) indication for the toe at (IIRC) 20 of turn, but doesn't say Negative for toe in normal straight ahead? Or am I missing something?

Obviously I'm quite used to concept of positive or negative camber, but toe is usually described in casual circles as 'in' or 'out', rather than + and - .

Also Richard, does your Gunson tell you what you've actually set? E.g., do you know what you're actually running? If so what, and I'll try that.
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I would treat the value without +/- with caution. The comparable values for Lupo 3L/FSI/GTI on Elsawin all have + or - signs. Incidentally they all have the same 20deg value as the A2. The straight ahead static value for the GTI/FSI is 0deg +/- 10' whereas the 3L is -10deg+/- 5'! I think that's why our 3L's suffered initially from wear on the front inside edges!

This all becomes academic with Trakrite. You simply adjust the tracking until the instrument reads zero after running over it. No idea what the static toe measurements are but I have no tyre wear or any other issues. Instructions attached. You do need level ground though, which might be a problem in Heathfield!

RAB
 

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RAB said:
I would treat the value without +/- with caution. The comparable values for Lupo 3L/FSI/GTI on Elsawin all have + or - signs. Incidentally they all have the same 20deg value as the A2. The straight ahead static value for the GTI/FSI is 0deg +/- 10' whereas the 3L is -10deg+/- 5'! I think that's why our 3L's suffered initially from wear on the front inside edges!

This all becomes academic with Trakrite. You simply adjust the tracking until the instrument reads zero after running over it. No idea what the static toe measurements are but I have no tyre wear or any other issues. Instructions attached. You do need level ground though, which might be a problem in Heathfield!

RAB
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It turns out it really is academic, Richard, it drives awfully regardless. I've just tried everything from a little toe out, dead neutral and then a fraction of toe in: it's verging on dangerous on all settings.

Let me take you on a drive: after a brief workout we selected first and head out onto the road. As the speed builds a bit more power is applied, the car increasingly (but gently) eases to the right, so this is corrected.

What's this? A cyclist is ahead: the power is eased and the car pulls off to the left. We brake and oddly, it pulls up dead straight. Just as we get past the cyclist we go over a sunken manhole: again another lurch, again to the left, but that's where the manhole was.

Carrying on, we go through a series of bends. Surely the front wheels are tucking under the car? Randomly an unseen giant has now pushed the car dead-sideways: no body-roll, just a lurch to the left.

Over a hump-bridge style hillock, the car lurches sideways and shifts and squirms through the following series of bends. A repeated attempt with coasting over the peak yields a similar tucking-under / lurching impression.

We now return to base and pondering whether to just get the thing baled and be done with it.
 
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dj_efk said:
Barry, have you carefully measured the replacement lower wishbones to check that they are exactly in-spec? Sorry if you mentioned this previously, it’s just that on the mammoth thread on those, it was mentioned I think by @bretti_kivi that some makes are decidedly inferior and even defective at manufacture.
[/I'm thinking this might be it: customer paid for decent arms and bushes but didn't get the ideal ones.

Not sure what to do tbh: I have zero desire to take this thing further. Will stick it in the furthest corner of the yard for now and hope someone steals it. Judging by how well this whole thing has panned out, they'll then crash it and try to sue ...

In reality, I do have an MOT booked for next week. Whilst I can't see anything that'll fail it, it might be that something shows up on the shaker lane: perhaps those bushes that look and feel O.K. with a bar are actually shifting around more than I can induce here
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Really strange. A movie of this behavoiur could complement your words?
But I would guess you are busy with other things :).
 
Joga said:
What a lemon car :(
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Yes, it's just too much: this is why the previous owner sold it. He knew things were coming up and priced it accordingly. In fact he was close to sending it to the breakers so was delighted to get £400 from Steve.

My problem is it's not a £400 car, it's now a car that can't be used and can't be sold, has taken a good twenty hours so far and owes me (all in) well over £1300 so far, £930 of which (after contribution towards the stripped hub) went to Steve. The main thing though is I bought this one rather than a scrap-dodger because I didn't want to be sinking hours into a large project.

Currently I have the worst of both worlds: a car that needs more mechanical and underside work than the Devon car, but it arrived at four times the price for a lesser spec.

Oh well, in the great scheme of things it's not the end of the world, but not much fun either.
 
Ahh, sometimes you have to laugh: my landlord's just come up to me: 'I've got a present for you.' Ooh goodie, I thought: some choccies, bit of lemon drizzle cake perhaps?

No, that stripped wheel bolt had fallen out on the drive as I drove past him during testing earlier. Not quite the image I like to cultivate ?
 
A long shot I know. Can you pull the power steering fuse then drive the car to see if that makes any difference?
 
audifan said:
A long shot I know. Can you pull the power steering fuse then drive the car to see if that makes any difference?
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Where is that one Graham? I'll give it a go, although handling is very odd even on a straight and steering is one area that feels perfectly fine.
 
The big fuse in the passenger under floor compartment just forward of the ECU and CCCU and fuse 38 in the main fuse box by the steering wheel.

With 20 degrees steering the toe in is still positive ( and the greatest value provided ) it never changes to toe out.
 
Found a picture on here of the under floor fuse.

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The car had new wishbones last year, could it be that these are out of line? Would it be worth having it professionally aligned rather than trying to do it yourself?
 
One question I can't see an answer to on this thread so far: what tyres are on the front? I once mixed budget and decent brand on the front axle on a FWD Citroen, and I had a very similar issue with it pulling slightly to one side under power which became a dive in the other direction when coming off it. Later on that same car had a rear control arm bush gradually go and although I could feel it unsettling the car into right-hand bends, it took a couple of MOTs for it to get bad enough to be picked up by the tester.
 
Proghound said:
One question I can't see an answer to on this thread so far: what tyres are on the front? I once mixed budget and decent brand on the front axle on a FWD Citroen, and I had a very similar issue with it pulling slightly to one side under power which became a dive in the other direction when coming off it. Later on that same car had a rear control arm bush gradually go and although I could feel it unsettling the car into right-hand bends, it took a couple of MOTs for it to get bad enough to be picked up by the tester.
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They're Continentals (matched in type, date and wear) but I did swap them over with some 175-15's I've got here (lightweight wheels) with some ratty old Kumos (sp?): drove just the same, well better from a ride point of view, but not from from the point of this issue.
 
A2Steve said:
The car had new wishbones last year, could it be that these are out of line? Would it be worth having it professionally aligned rather than trying to do it yourself?
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Well one possibility is that they've allowed the subframe to shift and not kept things aligned. I will read around this now tracking and tyres have been definitively ruled out. Mind you, the only people that would sort this are A2 knowledgable folk, rather than regular alignment people.

Even so, when you look at a set of Dunlop gauges, there's not 'much' to go wrong. All it is a periscope that you look through from one wheel, and over to a mirror opposite. This is reflecting an image of a pointer that is attached to the periscope.

You adjust the angle of the periscope whilst looking through it by moving a vernier scale until the sight-wire intersects the pointer. This results in a reading in minutes.

You can also just zero the gauges and offer them up to the roadwheels and feeler gauge the gaps. They also can be calibrated easily. Therefore, there's really not much to go wrong and I've set up several TR's (4-6's), a couple of 911's, an E-Type plus others with them. Oh yes, and a Sports2000 race-car as well. Whilst a true pro might pick up on some nuance, the fact is quite drastic changes in toe have resulted in zero change in behaviour.

I'd hope that once the actual problem is resolved, then a toe setting that suits this particular car could be found.

Even so: I've done a rough eye-ball on everything else and honestly it all looks 'about right'. We're not talking tiny incremental stuff here. Wheels look identical in the arches all round, camber looks the same all round. Finally the caster must be about right because the wheels have the right fore and aft. They'd have to be miles off to achieve these symptoms.

On a troublesome E36 from way back I made a little fixture that completely supported the front A-arm at the rear bush, taking out all compliance. That, thinking about it, used to jump wildly to the left over potholes and the like. Adding the fixture did nothing to improve things. Annoyingly I can't remember what did: rear bushes possibly? Regrettably I can't see that I can try the same trick on the A2.
 
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As for the subframe, having changed the one on my ow car yesterday and it being the first time doing the job, there’s about 5mm of possibility of misalignment on almost every bolt. I.e you could easily re-fit the console on the wishbone 5mm out of where it was before. I don’t really understand the measurements your using to adjust the tracking, but I’m guessing 5mm is enough to cause issues?
 
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A2Steve said:
As for the subframe, having changed the one on my ow car yesterday and it being the first time doing the job, there’s about 5mm of possibility of misalignment on almost every bolt. I.e you could easily re-fit the console on the wishbone 5mm out of where it was before. I don’t really understand the measurements your using to adjust the tracking, but I’m guessing 5mm is enough to cause issues?
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I think this is quite possible, as you say, there's a good chance they're not in the right place. I don't think the garage used was a specialist particularly so they may well have just bolted everything up, set the tracking (which can be achieved regardless of where the subframe or consoles sit), and thought that was that.
 
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Here are the manual pages about removing and refitting the front subframe.

Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > A2 > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe

A2 > Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe
workshop-manuals.com

Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > A2 > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe | Removing

A2 > Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe | Removing
workshop-manuals.com

Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > A2 > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe | Installing

A2 > Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe | Installing
workshop-manuals.com

Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > A2 > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe | Tightening torques

A2 > Audi Workshop Service and Repair Manuals > Running gear, front-wheel drive | Front suspension, drive shafts | Subframe (basic running gear): exploded view | Locating subframe | Tightening torques
workshop-manuals.com

Hope this may help.
 
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