Maybe get a set of alignment pins? Can they not be used to align a subframe and consoles to a 'totally bare' underside? (ie. say you take off consoles and subframe, can you use the alignment pins to put them back in the right place, with no measurements or anything else?)
Wishbone replacement
- Thread starter mikec
- Start date
Tomscar
Member
No, the alignment pins are designed to lock the position before you take the consoles/ subframe off.
You can easily line up all the holes in the console, subframe, steering rack etc in the centre of every hole without the pins just by shining a torch up and looking ... this may be close enough but the idea with the pins I'm sure is to cut out the need for a re alignment etc and replace in the exact position ... you're maybe overthinking it.
My first check before buying pins or tackling it myself would be to spray all the bolts with WD40 and make sure you are able to move them ... if you can't then probably more trouble than it's worth and maybe hand it to a garage.
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If you loose the factory set position then maybe Phil Ward's solution for 'from scratch' settings for the rear axle may work on the front.
He best guessed the mounting console positions then took it to a 4 wheel alignment specialist for the final set up.
Worth finding a VAG specialist with 4 wheel alignment gear rather than a tyre depot who might not cope with the chassis settings.
Cheers Spike
He best guessed the mounting console positions then took it to a 4 wheel alignment specialist for the final set up.
Worth finding a VAG specialist with 4 wheel alignment gear rather than a tyre depot who might not cope with the chassis settings.
Cheers Spike
Menno
A2OC Donor
Regarding the Master-Sport kit; I ordered it and it was delivered today.TRW right side JTC1141 doesn't seem to be available anymore at all!
Parts Catalogue | TRW Automotive Aftermarket
Find TRW passenger car, HCV and motorcycle parts fast by using the online catalogue. Search by vehicle registration, part number, OE number, EAN number or vehicle type.www.trwaftermarket.com
Is it possible to take a petrol arm and replace the installed bushing with one meant for a diesel arm? I think I saw quite a few of the 'front' bushings available... someone in 2019 mentioned getting bare arms from Audi, so maybe that's why.
And 'Master-Sport Germany' seems to have most if not all of their operations in Poland: https://www.master-sport.de/EN/Contact_04/
hmmm.
Looks alright, a little rough due to enthusiastic flexing/grinding the casting edges.... Other than that, can't complain.
It's a complete set with the 2ea Aft silent blocks/rubbers, 2ea stabilizer rods, 2ea steering ball joints and ofcourse the left and right control arms.
Now I have to decide if Im going to install them or opt for a PQ25 set up....
PQ25 Console & Wishbone Swap
Dear all, There's some new topics about wishbones. I also just ordered some new forged/cast wishbones......... and then I came across this article by our German A2 friends! Maybe you guys allready knew about it, if you don't it can be an interesting read. Like it a lot myself, wish I...
www.a2oc.net
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I got 5 wishbones for comparison: Delphi, Meyle, M&S, Vaico, Febi
Delphi and Febi are supposedly petrol only (according to the store's search engine.. I checked the manufacturer catalogs before, but don't remember exactly which was for which, other than some being for petrol only and some being supposedly universal).
Meyle and Vaico seem to come from the same die. The rest from the same, other, die. You can see a difference in the shape of the low part of the wishbone, near its 'corners'. It smoothly goes up (from deep to shallow), whereas the other ones just haver a border (stay deep). You can also see a difference in the rounded circle, on the cast part, near the ball joint. The Vaico wishbone had 02/19 cast in, the Meyle 02/20. Some wishbones appeared to have been ground, some quite a bit. The Meyle one looked the nicest.
Out of all the balls, Delphi, Meyle, and Febi seemed to be similar in feel, with Meyle being the easiest to move. When you moved them, it's as if you could feel a whirring, from machining/turning marks somewhere inside? The M&S seemed stiffer, and the Vaico I couldn't even budge! I couldn't tell much difference between the rubber covers, but maybe the M&S is a bit thinner than the Meyle? (I moved the ball to an extreme, and felt the rubber where it joins the metal at the base of the ball). Not sure though.
edit: I checked the balls again, and I can't tell much of a difference between them anymore, with the exception that the Meyle one definitely requires the least force to move. Quite subjective checks though.
The integrated bushes were different too. Vaico seemed to have the largest gap, over 3mm, between the back washer and the rubber, with least rubber there out of all of the parts. I wonder if this larger gap would actually be a good thing for the diesel. The meyle had ~2mm gap. Anyway, Meyle again seemed cleanest to me, though the others were not terrible either. Some had washers that seemed to be not totally flat.
Geometrically they were all similar, but it seemed like not all of the bush holes were totally in line with the rear hex shaped pin?, I could be mistaken; I just kind of eyeballed it.
The price difference between the most expensive and cheapest was only about 6 GBP. Interestingly, the Vaico was the most expensive, and in my humble opinion, the worst looking of the lot. The Meyle was also at the extreme costly end, the M&S near the cheapest end.
Anyway, I'm leaning towards keeping the Meyle. I wonder though, how one can tell which ball joint is best? Is smoothness good? Is ease of movement (low force required to move) good or bad?
Anyway, I took some pictures of them all. if anyone would like to see them, let me know and I'll post them.
What's a PQ25 setup Menno?
Delphi and Febi are supposedly petrol only (according to the store's search engine.. I checked the manufacturer catalogs before, but don't remember exactly which was for which, other than some being for petrol only and some being supposedly universal).
Meyle and Vaico seem to come from the same die. The rest from the same, other, die. You can see a difference in the shape of the low part of the wishbone, near its 'corners'. It smoothly goes up (from deep to shallow), whereas the other ones just haver a border (stay deep). You can also see a difference in the rounded circle, on the cast part, near the ball joint. The Vaico wishbone had 02/19 cast in, the Meyle 02/20. Some wishbones appeared to have been ground, some quite a bit. The Meyle one looked the nicest.
Out of all the balls, Delphi, Meyle, and Febi seemed to be similar in feel, with Meyle being the easiest to move. When you moved them, it's as if you could feel a whirring, from machining/turning marks somewhere inside? The M&S seemed stiffer, and the Vaico I couldn't even budge! I couldn't tell much difference between the rubber covers, but maybe the M&S is a bit thinner than the Meyle? (I moved the ball to an extreme, and felt the rubber where it joins the metal at the base of the ball). Not sure though.
edit: I checked the balls again, and I can't tell much of a difference between them anymore, with the exception that the Meyle one definitely requires the least force to move. Quite subjective checks though.
The integrated bushes were different too. Vaico seemed to have the largest gap, over 3mm, between the back washer and the rubber, with least rubber there out of all of the parts. I wonder if this larger gap would actually be a good thing for the diesel. The meyle had ~2mm gap. Anyway, Meyle again seemed cleanest to me, though the others were not terrible either. Some had washers that seemed to be not totally flat.
Geometrically they were all similar, but it seemed like not all of the bush holes were totally in line with the rear hex shaped pin?, I could be mistaken; I just kind of eyeballed it.
The price difference between the most expensive and cheapest was only about 6 GBP. Interestingly, the Vaico was the most expensive, and in my humble opinion, the worst looking of the lot. The Meyle was also at the extreme costly end, the M&S near the cheapest end.
Anyway, I'm leaning towards keeping the Meyle. I wonder though, how one can tell which ball joint is best? Is smoothness good? Is ease of movement (low force required to move) good or bad?
Anyway, I took some pictures of them all. if anyone would like to see them, let me know and I'll post them.
What's a PQ25 setup Menno?
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In the workshop manual I saw specs for 'front stop washer to wishbone' and 'rear stop washer to wishbone', however, the diagram shows what looks like 'front stop rubber to wishbone' and 'rear stop rubber to rear washer'. It also says no gap between rear washer and console. So where are the gaps supposed to be?
Petrol:
front: 1.5 +0.45/-0.7 mm
rear: 2.2 +/-0.6 mm
Diesel:
front: 2.8 +0.45/-0.7 mm
rear: 1.4 +/-0.6mm
None of the arms I got have any gap in the front, and the rear varies. I'm guessing though that these gaps are supposed to be set when the wishbone is pushed into the console rear bush, so it's up to the installer to get it right, and in which case the Vaico might have an advantage in that it has ~3mm gap in the rear from the factory. The Meyle has only ~2mm, which split up between front and back for the TDI would not get you within spec; you'd need min. 2.1 + 0.8 = 2.9 mm for that. For the petrol you could get away with 0.8 + 1.6 = 2.4 mm. Interesting stuff And you can see they specced 5mm more for the TDI, maybe due to extra vibrations; but I wonder why more space in the rear and less in the front.
It looked like the front bush is made of separate metal parts, so maybe they could be prised apart to set the gaps, and if so the Meyle might be ok, or is the rubber bonded to the metal? I wonder what the gaps are from the factory on Audi aftermarket arms.
Does anyone even care about these gaps when replacing wishbones?
It's another late night!
Petrol:
front: 1.5 +0.45/-0.7 mm
rear: 2.2 +/-0.6 mm
Diesel:
front: 2.8 +0.45/-0.7 mm
rear: 1.4 +/-0.6mm
None of the arms I got have any gap in the front, and the rear varies. I'm guessing though that these gaps are supposed to be set when the wishbone is pushed into the console rear bush, so it's up to the installer to get it right, and in which case the Vaico might have an advantage in that it has ~3mm gap in the rear from the factory. The Meyle has only ~2mm, which split up between front and back for the TDI would not get you within spec; you'd need min. 2.1 + 0.8 = 2.9 mm for that. For the petrol you could get away with 0.8 + 1.6 = 2.4 mm. Interesting stuff
And you can see they specced 5mm more for the TDI, maybe due to extra vibrations; but I wonder why more space in the rear and less in the front.It looked like the front bush is made of separate metal parts, so maybe they could be prised apart to set the gaps, and if so the Meyle might be ok, or is the rubber bonded to the metal? I wonder what the gaps are from the factory on Audi aftermarket arms.
Does anyone even care about these gaps when replacing wishbones?
It's another late night!
Well, I took the Vaico front bush assembly apart, and it consists of a front washer/rubber combo (front stop), the main bush (in the wishbone) which sticks out the front (only the tube), and out the rear similarly, with the addition of rubber along the outside diameter integrated with the bush (rear stop). Finally, there is the rear metal washer.
The washers were pressed into the tube, but they only go a few mm into the tube, so adjustability seems small. What seems to matter is space between rear bump stop rubber, and whatever solid surface you're going to have in the back (the lightly pressed in washer in this case). The only thing you can adjust in the front it seems is installation of the console, front and back, on the car. The console has to be placed far back enough so that the front washer/rubber stop can be against the subframe, and when all screwed together, there is the specced gap between it and the wishbone. But it might be that you have to push the console back to get to the min. in the front, but you can't, because you'd end up below the min. spec in the rear. In that case, you'd have to move the whole console back, allow you to maintain the rear gap, while increasing the front. Oh brother! I wonder if anyone does that, heh.
It also seems to me that the tube sticking out the front is what's going to hit the front stop washer first, and not the wishbone. I wonder if that's by design. If so, the main bush would take the load, and only when the wishbone would move further forward (that's a lot of bush ruuber to deflect), it (by design) would touch the front stop washer's rubber, which then would take some of the load. Seems a bit odd to me, and also, it seems like, then, if you press the front stop washer/rubber into the tube, so that the metal part of the washer touches the tube, if you do not have the required gap between the washer's rubber and the wishbone, you're out of luck! Because even if you set the specced gap with the console, etc., properly, when the wishbone moves forward enough, the washer/rubber will get pressed into it until it touches the tube, and when the wishbone moves back, it'll 'take' the washer/rubber with it. It therefore might not matter what front washer rubber to wishbone gap you set in the front, because the limiting factor might be how far out the main bush tube sticks out! Basically, if you push in the washer/rubber into the tube until it hits the tube, and you don't have the min. gap between the rubber and wishbone, you're outta luck!
Clear as mud? How's my burning-the-2:30am(here)-oil analysis?
The washers were pressed into the tube, but they only go a few mm into the tube, so adjustability seems small. What seems to matter is space between rear bump stop rubber, and whatever solid surface you're going to have in the back (the lightly pressed in washer in this case). The only thing you can adjust in the front it seems is installation of the console, front and back, on the car. The console has to be placed far back enough so that the front washer/rubber stop can be against the subframe, and when all screwed together, there is the specced gap between it and the wishbone. But it might be that you have to push the console back to get to the min. in the front, but you can't, because you'd end up below the min. spec in the rear. In that case, you'd have to move the whole console back, allow you to maintain the rear gap, while increasing the front. Oh brother! I wonder if anyone does that, heh.
It also seems to me that the tube sticking out the front is what's going to hit the front stop washer first, and not the wishbone. I wonder if that's by design. If so, the main bush would take the load, and only when the wishbone would move further forward (that's a lot of bush ruuber to deflect), it (by design) would touch the front stop washer's rubber, which then would take some of the load. Seems a bit odd to me, and also, it seems like, then, if you press the front stop washer/rubber into the tube, so that the metal part of the washer touches the tube, if you do not have the required gap between the washer's rubber and the wishbone, you're out of luck! Because even if you set the specced gap with the console, etc., properly, when the wishbone moves forward enough, the washer/rubber will get pressed into it until it touches the tube, and when the wishbone moves back, it'll 'take' the washer/rubber with it. It therefore might not matter what front washer rubber to wishbone gap you set in the front, because the limiting factor might be how far out the main bush tube sticks out! Basically, if you push in the washer/rubber into the tube until it hits the tube, and you don't have the min. gap between the rubber and wishbone, you're outta luck!
Clear as mud? How's my burning-the-2:30am(here)-oil analysis?
P.S. Likewise, there might always be a gap between the rear metal washer and the console, after the first time the wishbone moves back and presses the washer more into itself, and then moves back, with the washer now. So it seems like inside tube length and positioning from the factory are important, because to get properly set up gaps that won't change after the wishbone starts moving around, the washers are going to have to be flush with the tube. So it seems now that gaps from the factory do matter, because (once you push the washers flush with the tube, if not already so from the factory), those are the gaps you're going to get once the wishbone starts moving around during driving. So back to my first assumptions, but now with some justification.
So it seems now that gaps from the factory do matter, because (once you push the washers flush with the tube, if not already so from the factory), those are the gaps you're going to get once the wishbone starts moving around during driving. So back to my first assumptions, but now with some justification.
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justin-20V
Member
Good investigation work mikec, no obvious real winner I suppose. And like you say the pricing is pretty similar too...
The MS kit is the best value, but then again the TRW ones have only really inflated in price more recently and would have been similar price a while back, so not necessarily fair to say the others are all cheap copies. Given the choice though, think we'd all fit the TRW / Lemforder ones, but it seems impossible to obtain them currently.
I went for the MS kit for my TDI due to it being the only version listed specifically for the TDI and matching the original cross reference numbers - in fact they sneakily use the 27036 & 27037 to match TRW, fair logic I suppose.
I'm going to fit them in a couple of weeks time, will report back any issues. Hopefully if they do fit fine I won't be repeating the operation in two years time !, we shall have to wait and see...
The MS kit is the best value, but then again the TRW ones have only really inflated in price more recently and would have been similar price a while back, so not necessarily fair to say the others are all cheap copies. Given the choice though, think we'd all fit the TRW / Lemforder ones, but it seems impossible to obtain them currently.
I went for the MS kit for my TDI due to it being the only version listed specifically for the TDI and matching the original cross reference numbers - in fact they sneakily use the 27036 & 27037 to match TRW, fair logic I suppose.
I'm going to fit them in a couple of weeks time, will report back any issues. Hopefully if they do fit fine I won't be repeating the operation in two years time !, we shall have to wait and see...
I've thought about it some more, and read about M&S and Meyle on some Polish forums again, and I still think Meyle for me. But yes, time will tell. I'm guessing both will be ok at first, but longevity might be different.
Anyway, I had a look at the right side rear silentblok/bush and it seems fine, from the outside, though it's likely 20 years old. Rubber ages, yadda yadda, but is it really worth changing it?, and to non-OE (though Lemfo), and risking a potentially 'sub optimal' installation too? I might end up getting a mechanic to do all of this; I don't want to get stuck unable to put the new wishbones on (brute force, only one person), don't have a bush press either.
Anyway, I had a look at the right side rear silentblok/bush and it seems fine, from the outside, though it's likely 20 years old. Rubber ages, yadda yadda, but is it really worth changing it?, and to non-OE (though Lemfo), and risking a potentially 'sub optimal' installation too? I might end up getting a mechanic to do all of this; I don't want to get stuck unable to put the new wishbones on (brute force, only one person), don't have a bush press either.
greywolfhound
Member
You explained all that better than I could of ever ,,Well done indeed ??..as I already new petrol and diesel were different ..you have confirmed also that the meyle also in my opinion are the best after lemforder .. How expensive for the Meyle now I paid £120 for the pair a couple of years ago....Thankyou once again for all that effort you have put in ..?
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Glad it helped. I hope it's at least somewhat correct. If TRW front bushes were still.available sewhere, you could compare dimensions, etc, with the ones in the meyle arms.
I still don't know if I really understand the front bush spacing stuff though, because in the workshop manual there is definite info about checking gaps after assembling wishbone to console. If you can't really change them, then what does it matter? So you can tell if the arm/bushing assembly you bought is good or bad?
(pol wishbone removal/installation). Doesnt look so hard, but is the A2 rear bush really that much harder as to make it incredibly difficult to remove and especially install?
Can the wd40 really go anywhere and everywhere? On rubber too?
I still don't know if I really understand the front bush spacing stuff though, because in the workshop manual there is definite info about checking gaps after assembling wishbone to console. If you can't really change them, then what does it matter? So you can tell if the arm/bushing assembly you bought is good or bad?
Can the wd40 really go anywhere and everywhere? On rubber too?