Audi A0 ? Twin Up Diesel Electric power?

On diesel alone, it won't be any more economical than a Lupo 3L or an A2 1.2. On electric power alone, because of the way we generate electricity, it will be more polluting than either. Ignore the idiotic European method of assessing CO2 emissions for hybrids. It's also heavier and will be expensive, even with a £5,000 subsidy. Progress? Hardly!

RAB
 
Audi management stated very clearly last week an Audi version of the Up! is not a priority so in effect it isn't going to happen, instead pusrsuing expanding the Q range hence the Q1 concept images released this week. This is just the usual Autoexcess so called journalism, I call it twollocks. Other than that I agree with RAB, another one for the bicycle knitters.
 
Interesting points you have made. I consider that, for my typical day-to-day use, I might never have needed to use diesel. The test reports on this vehicle indicate a pretty good range on electric alone. Looking ahead, when this model has become "established", indications are that values for used examples can be substantially lower than the new list price. I will look with interest at what the future holds. There will be ever improving specification for theses hybrid models, and a drop in price, that's for sure! Do you remember how much the first CD players/ CD's cost? Plasma TV's? .... £5000/£8000? Now you bring one home with your local Supermarket shopping! I think that these hybrids are going to be an unstoppable trend! Talking about the electricity being generated from a polluting source, how about charging your car from solar energy? As you are aware, there are quite a few properties in the UK with solar arrays (Now these were installed when the Government had encouraged installation by offering attractive tariffs for the surplus generated electricity. However, the cost of panels has reduced considerably, so a small array, capable of charging your hybrid, would be justifiable. Incidentally, there was a proposed scheme in Israel that would have consisted of a National series of battery "stations", where you would have driven in and simply swapped your depleted battery for another, fully-charged unit. They had developed a system where the batteries could be rapidly changed over, just as quick as refuelling! The big plus was that recharging the batteries was via solar energy! .... Perfect! I am very interested in high economy vehicles. Electric seems to be right up there ... My ultimate economy vehicle? Well, an LPG converted Fiat Cinquecento Sporting. It was fuelled from my own LPG source. The equivalent petrol MPG? Well, 120 MPG! I kid you not!

David
 
Unless you have a VERY big roof, you won't be going very far by solar in the winter in the UK, judging by how much electricity we generate (in just about the sunniest part of the UK). Unless of course you only use your car once a week but then you probably don't need a car!

RAB
 
I have a solar water-heating panel on my roof. It is about 2.5 m2. I have just looked at it, and it is running! In fact, it will run most days, even in Winter and with little Sun! I do have a huge roof, too! (South facing) Surely you don't need to generate that much electricity to recharge your car? I have also thought that there might have been that possibility to incorporate a solar panel into the roof of an electric-powered car, so that the batteries would have been "topped-up", whenever the car was parked in Sunlight? What is wrong with that idea of mine? Don't all answer that question at once! Ha-Ha!

David
 
I installed a 3kWp solar pv a year ago. It's currently pushing out 250w in the mid day gloom. Yesterday at the same time it was doing 1.25kw. Yes the winter output is less but from April onwards it absolutely belts out the power, far more than we can use in the house during the day even with working from home, running the dishwasher and washing machine only during daylight hourd and having an immersion diverter that heats our hot water with the spare solar electricity too.
We used no gas at all for hot water heating from April until October and our electric consumption from the grid has fallen by almost half.
Solar pv systems are fantastic and I love seeing them on people's roofs. We need more of them installed nationally.
 
David I'm sure I've read that one of the electric cars out there has a small pv panel in the roof to provide power for the car systems when driving.
 
This is what I so enjoy about this Forum .... pleasant and interesting discussion with members whom I consider to be "friends" .... Thank you ... I do need this ...

David
 
What happens a) in 20 years when the efficacy of the roof panels is but a fraction of new and some probably don't work at all. b) when there is snow on them? How do people who live in flats or with on street parking run a charging cable? How do you go for a 400 mile drive in one? All of which is possible with a conventional A2..... Whilst having a mild interest in a range extender the one problem with any EV is the battery weight. Vehicle weight that takes the most energy to overcome and is there all the time whether driving at 30 or 100 mph.
 
A. Efficiency tail off is about 15% over 20 years so they'll still be working well.
B. True. But what happens when we run out of gas?
B.1. A problem of planning which can be solved with a bit of willing. All blocks of flats could have panels on them for community generation which benefits the whole block via a feed in tarrif generation. Councils should provide road side charging points in parking bays. There are some in mu borough.
C. Range extenders for now solve this issue. A wider roll out of fast charge DC points will help longer term.
 
A) Not according to the stats I have seen, they will be lucky to be 15% efficient in 20 years. Manufacturers will tell you what they want you to hear. What about replacing failed panels and other maintenance costs?
B) gas will be around a heck of a long time yet and if PV's are the answer then I take it all those in favour of so-called renewables have had their gas supply disconnected? I thought not....
It's not just about planning but some buildings are simply not configured appropriately, have insufficient surface area, the roof structures are too weak and so on. And why should the poor subsidise the better off because that is what feed-in tarriffs from eco charges on everyones bills in practice do? The simplest way of reducing fuel poverty is stop the skewed subsidies. Who would honestly have PV's and so on if they weren't getting such ridiculous subsidies?
C) True enough but isn't there still something rather crude about having an engine to charge a battery to power a car? It all seems a bit of lash up to meet the politicos agendas rather than objective solutions - to a 'problem' that is unproven anyway.
 
Adrian888 said:
How do you go for a 400 mile drive in one?
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Well, we're talking about a diesel hybrid .... this one ... http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/vw-twin-up-concept-tokyo-2013-11-20 VW have an all-electric version, out April, next year. With this hybrid type, then a 400 mile trip should be no problem. When you read the specification of the hybrid, there are some really good claims made for potential economy and performance, from what is only a two-cylinder diesel engine! What is so intriguing is that the electric range on one charge .... around 100 miles should be achievable! That's good! And then you've got the "insurance" of seamless switching to diesel power! Then, if it was charged from your own Solar array, you are really going places for zero cost. I know that I have a free bus-pass, here in Wales, but that would be even better! Update! I am getting confused between these two variants! It's the all-electric, E-up that has that good range on one charge! The hybrid is down to only about 30 miles on just electric .... sorry!

David
 
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DJ 190 said:
What is so intriguing is that the electric range on one charge .... around 100 miles should be achievable! That's good! And then you've got the "insurance" of seamless switching to diesel power! Then, if it was charged from your own Solar array, you are really going places for zero cost. I know that I have a free bus-pass, here in Wales, but that would be even better! Update! I am getting confused between these two variants! It's the all-electric, E-up that has that good range on one charge! The hybrid is down to only about 30 miles on just electric .... sorry!

David
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Correction: the electric-only range for the twin-Up! claimed by VW is 30 miles, not 100. The problem with home solar charging is that, if you use it for commuting, the car is always in the wrong place, unless you work at night! The problem with hybrids is the weight - if you drive 400 miles you're carrying around excess weight in the form of a battery and an electric motor. If you drive only 10 miles you're carrying a heavy and useless diesel engine and gearbox.

RAB
 
A - show the stats then please. Panels have no moving parts, there's almost nothing to fail. They're reliable, silent and they just work. They're also massively more efficient than they were even 5 years ago.
B. - yes gas, oil and coal will be around for a while, but will only become more and more expensive to extract, transport and burn as time goes by, handing more and more profit and power into the hands of a small number of energy producing companies, and also a small number of (volatile) Governments. The counter arguement is why would you not utilise the energy that blazes down upon us hour upon hour, day on day? Why would you not try and capture power from wind, wave, and sun in order to not have to buy and burn Russian gas? I think it's ridiculous that we import so much power and cough up so much of our GDP (and national security) from countries like Saudi, Iran, Nigeria, Russia etc. Whether you believe in the green argument or not, you have to start exploring the energy security and independence argument, not to mention the huge damage to the economy from the cost of importing hydrocarbons to burn.
B.1 - of course not every building is suitable for retrofitting of solar PV, or solar hot water, or ground source heating etc, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it where it is appropriate.
B.2 - the cost of "green tax" subsidisation for FiTs and other measures is tiny compared to the amount of money we subsidise the fossil fuel industries in tax relief. Remember, bills are only going to go up, we should be doing everything we can to reduce people's domestic need through energy efficiency as well - better insulation, LED lighting and the rest.
B.3 - within another few years, solar PV will have achieved grid-parity for cost and FiTs will no longer be required for it to be cost-effective to retrofit. Nuclear and gas receive way more subsidy than any solar PV.
C - come back and argue that again when it costs you £3/litre to fill up a tank of diesel/petrol and a plug-in hybrid is a cheaper alternative. It's inevitable that fuel costs will rise and continue to rise.



Adrian888 said:
A) Not according to the stats I have seen, they will be lucky to be 15% efficient in 20 years. Manufacturers will tell you what they want you to hear. What about replacing failed panels and other maintenance costs?
B) gas will be around a heck of a long time yet and if PV's are the answer then I take it all those in favour of so-called renewables have had their gas supply disconnected? I thought not....
It's not just about planning but some buildings are simply not configured appropriately, have insufficient surface area, the roof structures are too weak and so on. And why should the poor subsidise the better off because that is what feed-in tarriffs from eco charges on everyones bills in practice do? The simplest way of reducing fuel poverty is stop the skewed subsidies. Who would honestly have PV's and so on if they weren't getting such ridiculous subsidies?
C) True enough but isn't there still something rather crude about having an engine to charge a battery to power a car? It all seems a bit of lash up to meet the politicos agendas rather than objective solutions - to a 'problem' that is unproven anyway.
Click to expand...
 
Adrian888 said:
How do people who live in flats or with on street parking run a charging cable?
Click to expand...

A huge percentage of the population in Sweden live in flats with large car parks outside. They all have charging points to warm the engine as it can regularly get down to minus 10C in the south and minus 30C in the north. More of a challenge with on street but until recently parking meters were common.
 
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