Audi A0 ? Twin Up Diesel Electric power?

[DJ 190]

David,

You should re-read your own post. You claimed an electric 100 mile range for the hybrid not the E Up!

RAB

Update! I am getting confused between these two variants! It's the all-electric, E-up that has that good range on one charge! The hybrid is down to only about 30 miles on just electric .... sorry!

David

Hi Rab, I did read my own post (and you should have, too! LOL!) Then you would have seen that I had realised my own error and corrected it! Quite simply, it is the E-up electric that should be able (and has, under recent testing), to achieve a single charge range of approaching 100 miles! That is remarkable! The E-up hybrid is not so good, being claimed by VW to be only 30 miles. However, a claimed overall fuel consumption of 258 mpg for the hybrid is quite remarkable, too!

David

 

[Guest 4123]

Hi Rab, I did read my own post (and you should have, too! LOL!) Then you would have seen that I had realised my own error and corrected it! Quite simply, it is the E-up electric that should be able (and has, under recent testing), to achieve a single charge range of approaching 100 miles! That is remarkable! The E-up hybrid is not so good, being claimed by VW to be only 30 miles. However, a claimed overall fuel consumption of 258 mpg for the hybrid is quite remarkable, too!

David

The idiotic and ludicrous European method gives rise to the 258mpg figure. If you were to put a gallon of diesel in it with an uncharged battery, it would take you about 95 miles, i.e. Lupo 3L performance from 1999! It will never see the light of day. If VW had problems shifting 3L's, how many of these would they sell at at least 2x the price?

RAB

 

[chubbybrown]

A - show the stats then please. Panels have no moving parts, there's almost nothing to fail. They're reliable, silent and they just work. They're also massively more efficient than they were even 5 years ago.
B. - yes gas, oil and coal will be around for a while, but will only become more and more expensive to extract, transport and burn as time goes by, handing more and more profit and power into the hands of a small number of energy producing companies, and also a small number of (volatile) Governments. The counter arguement is why would you not utilise the energy that blazes down upon us hour upon hour, day on day? Why would you not try and capture power from wind, wave, and sun in order to not have to buy and burn Russian gas? I think it's ridiculous that we import so much power and cough up so much of our GDP (and national security) from countries like Saudi, Iran, Nigeria, Russia etc. Whether you believe in the green argument or not, you have to start exploring the energy security and independence argument, not to mention the huge damage to the economy from the cost of importing hydrocarbons to burn.
B.1 - of course not every building is suitable for retrofitting of solar PV, or solar hot water, or ground source heating etc, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it where it is appropriate.
B.2 - the cost of "green tax" subsidisation for FiTs and other measures is tiny compared to the amount of money we subsidise the fossil fuel industries in tax relief. Remember, bills are only going to go up, we should be doing everything we can to reduce people's domestic need through energy efficiency as well - better insulation, LED lighting and the rest.
B.3 - within another few years, solar PV will have achieved grid-parity for cost and FiTs will no longer be required for it to be cost-effective to retrofit. Nuclear and gas receive way more subsidy than any solar PV.
C - come back and argue that again when it costs you £3/litre to fill up a tank of diesel/petrol and a plug-in hybrid is a cheaper alternative. It's inevitable that fuel costs will rise and continue to rise.

I don't know what panels everyone has but mine have a 25 year warranty they wont have a power output less than 90%
12 years for 95%
plus a 10 year on repair,replacement or refund.
These are pangea systems panels 8.33 gallium type.

If they could do a car with 200 miles I would be interested but at first would rather just a two pot diesel as hopefully more cheaper long term

 

[dan_b]

I have Hyundai panels also with a 25-year warranty. 10 year warranty on the SolarEdge Inverter.

 

[MikeMarsUK]

The idiotic and ludicrous European method gives rise to the 258mpg figure. ...

+ 1 on that. Last year I spent a few hours researching how they got their numbers & it is madness.

They should use the American approach of working out how much fuel is used to generate the electricity & using that as the conversion factor.



With regard to solar panels, yes a good idea. The inverters are less reliable than the panels themselves, you should budget for replacing them after 10-15 years.

Obviously in the long run, solar panel generation needs to be balanced with appropriate base-load generation & perhaps energy storage (maybe even the smart-charging idea on electric cars, where their batteries are used to smooth out the peaks in the mains demand).

Regarding the life expectancy of panels... there are a number of different technologies & the life expectancy will be different for each. At least for polycrystalline panels, the actual life expectancy is a lot longer than the 20 years.

http://www.appropedia.org/Lifespan_...lline_Silicon_Photovoltaic_Modules_.282009.29

... Polycrystalline Silicon[edit] The Results of Performance Measurements of Field-aged Crystalline Silicon Photovoltaic Modules (2009)***Artur Skoczek, Tony Sample and Ewan D. Dunlop, The Results of Performance Measurements of Field-aged Crystalline Silicon Photovoltaic Modules, Progress in Photovoltaics: Research and Applications, Volume 17 Issue 4, 2009, Pages 227 - 240[6]

Abstract This paper presents the results of electrical performance measurements of 204 crystalline silicon-wafer based photovoltaic modules following long-term continuous outdoor exposure. The modules comprise a set of 53 module types originating from 20 different producers, all of which were originally characterized at the European Solar Test Installation (ESTI), over the period 1982-1986. The modules represent diverse generations of PV technologies, different encapsulation and substrate materials. The modules electrical performance was determined according to the standards IEC 60891 and the IEC 60904 series, electrical insulation tests were performed according to the recent IEC 61215 edition 2. Many manufacturers currently give a double power warranty for their products, typically 90% of the initial maximum power after 10 years and 80% of the original maximum power after 25 years. Applying the same criteria (taking into account modules electrical performance only and assuming 2·5% measurement uncertainty of a testing lab) only 17·6% of modules failed (35 modules out of 204 tested). Remarkably even if we consider the initial warranty period i.e. 10% of Pmax after 10 years, more than 65·7% of modules exposed for 20 years exceed this criteria. The definition of life time is a difficult task as there does not yet appear to be a fixed catastrophic failure point in module ageing but more of a gradual degradation. Therefore, if a system continues to produce energy which satisfies the user need it has not yet reached its end of life. If we consider this level arbitrarily to be the 80% of initial power then all indications from the measurements and observations made in this paper are that the useful lifetime of solar modules is not limited to the commonly assumed 20 year. Copyright © 2008 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

...


Life Expectancy of Solar PanelLife Expectancy of Solar Panels

Andy Black, one of the leading solar financial analysis experts and instructor, recently published his report on the lifespan of solar panels. His analysis showed that the first solar panels manufactured about 40 years ago are still creating power at about 80% of their original power. From that study combined with his other analysis, he concluded that most solar panels will lose about a half percent a year in efficiency.

As always, 'you get what you pay for'. A quality panel will last longer than a cheapo panel.

 

[ecoangel]

EV / plug In hybrids and Solar PV

RAB and Mikemarsuk are pretty much spot on.

Solar PV is much less efficient in terms of energy conversion than Solar Thermal (Evacuated Tube variety). The latter are around 85% effective at converting to hot water the former around 16 to 20% to electricity.

There is no way a home Solar PV set up in the UK will charge your car sufficiently let alone a roof panel on the vehicle. If my 17 NEC panels generate around 3000kWh per annun & if i could get every last drop into say a bmw i3 or Nissan Leaf (say 20kWh per pack charge) this would provide at best (based on 15kw/ 100km) 150 charges with range varying between summer and winter of 50 to 100 miles per charge it sounds like 10,000 mile pa is feasible.

However (and it's a big one!) - there are huge losses both in charging and great variations due to weather and in solar peaks (especially for S facing roofs).

In reality we would be using the UK average electric at 506g Co2 per kWh. In Southern Spain or California it is a different story.

That makes the pure EV i3 in UK a 96g/km Co2 car.

But this is still better than most machines (particularly as we cannot buy new Lupo3Ls or A2 1.2s anymore).

Worse are the Hybrids like the Ampera unless the owners just do short / city commutes.

A british mag managed 29 miles electric on the Ampera/Volt there after as RAB says it's a very heavy 1.4 petrol car.

Audi's new A3 Sportback Etron looks just as bad if you drive say 100 miles per day - the first 31 miles on electricity and then use the 1.4 TSI engine to haul around about half a ton of extras (over and above the standard A3 1.4 TSI).

EVs have there place - probably as city cars or short commutes. Unless you can stretch to £50k for a Tesla model S - Genuine 200 mile range and 0-60 in 4 secs - which is what Audi should have done years ago - made an Ally A5 EV instead of making more an more heavy SUV Q1-7 cars that we really don't need on UK country lanes and in crowded streets.

 

[DJ 190]

Hi Lukas ..... Thank you for your interesting contribution! I wonder if you can help me with one or two points, please? You have said this : "There is no way a home Solar PV set up in the UK will charge your car sufficiently let alone a roof panel on the vehicle". I can't quite understand this ..... I recall that not so long ago, there seemed to be a rush to get these panels fitted, so that people could qualify for a good rate for their surplus generated electricity? It appeared to be a "cash-cow" and I could see that many properties were then showing panels fitted, sometimes to the detriment of the properties appearance! With what you have said, is their return on invested capital not so good? (Those early panels were rather expensive, I believe) I have a huge potential roof area, south-facing. It is 25m long by about 5-6m height. Panels have come right down in cost, too. That section of roof is, fortunately, on the "hidden" side of the property and would not detract from the general appearance. If the whole of that massive area was covered with solar panels, are you saying that, even then, there wouldn't be enough generation to charge an EV? Finally, even if there wasn't, then the generation from that source could be used to supplement the charge from the normal house supply? As always, I really enjoy this Forum for its friendly and informative content ....

David

 

[Birchall]

Hi Lukas ..... Thank you for your interesting contribution! I wonder if you can help me with one or two points, please? You have said this : "There is no way a home Solar PV set up in the UK will charge your car sufficiently let alone a roof panel on the vehicle". I can't quite understand this ..... I recall that not so long ago, there seemed to be a rush to get these panels fitted, so that people could qualify for a good rate for their surplus generated electricity? It appeared to be a "cash-cow" and I could see that many properties were then showing panels fitted, sometimes to the detriment of the properties appearance! With what you have said, is their return on invested capital not so good? (Those early panels were rather expensive, I believe) I have a huge potential roof area, south-facing. It is 25m long by about 5-6m height. Panels have come right down in cost, too. That section of roof is, fortunately, on the "hidden" side of the property and would not detract from the general appearance. If the whole of that massive area was covered with solar panels, are you saying that, even then, there wouldn't be enough generation to charge an EV? Finally, even if there wasn't, then the generation from that source could be used to supplement the charge from the normal house supply? As always, I really enjoy this Forum for its friendly and informative content ....

David

We fully investigated the home solar panels, but it was 11 years before we could have recovered the cost of the panels and installation, granted the prices have lowered a bit but I think the government / electric company "grant" has also reduced?

I am sure though that enough electricity would be generated to charge an EV and then some.

Steve B

 

[dan_b]

Cost of solar pv installation has fallen massively it's less than half the cost for the same sized system from just 2 years ago. Our system has done really well this year and should pay us back in under 7 years assuming no rises in electricity and gas prices in that time and even more quickly if they do. Our electric consumption has fallen 50 percent and our gas by about 10 percent (our pv also heats the hot water tank through some clever tech).

From June to September we were exporting around 10kWh to the grid most days so plenty of spare capacity there in the summer months at least.

The pv panel on the roof of the Tesla is for trickle charging minor systems only but better than nothing.

 

[chubbybrown]

The thing is the panels make the power during the daytime, how many peoples cars are home in the daytime?
Mine would be in work.
I did roughy 2700kwh last year.
Payback...who knows but Im not moving

 

[DJ 190]

how many peoples cars are home in the daytime?

Well mine is, most of the time .... except when I'm using it! Ha-Ha! I see your point, though! Longer Summer days?

David

 

[Adrian888]

I have stayed away from this thread to preserve my blood pressure, I made a mistake of looking in this morning.....