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PlasticMac
Member
All sounds magic. But, I don't think ground source will deliver hot water. Ground source is fine for low level space heating, but is not going to be a retro fit solution (practically or economically). Great for new builds only. A modest 75 kW EV will take around 12 hours to charge at 7 kW (chargers are not 100% efficient). Hot water requires fast response to demand, so having a bath, while the car's on charge, might mean no evening meal can be cooked.
Yes, a bit tongue in cheek, but it's not as simple as you, and politicians, imagine.
Still, when did the practicalities get in the way of government policy?
Mac
Caesarmp
Member
I think in the Guardian.
PlasticMac
Member
Battery and charging technology will make significant advances, and charging times will drop, making EVs more practical.
But, reducing charge times increases the demand on the distribution infrastructure.
Putting 50 kW into a battery over 10 hours requires only a modest 10 amps. To charge the same battery in 5 hours requires 20 amps. A quick 1 hour charge would require 100 amps @250 volts. The kit required would be huge, imagine the size of the cable and connector!
Practically you'd need a high voltage (440 volts, 3 phase) supply, which reduces the current by about 50%, which would only be realistic at a dedicated charging station.
So fast charging solves one problem, but only makes the infrastructures problems worse.
Mac.
But, reducing charge times increases the demand on the distribution infrastructure.
Putting 50 kW into a battery over 10 hours requires only a modest 10 amps. To charge the same battery in 5 hours requires 20 amps. A quick 1 hour charge would require 100 amps @250 volts. The kit required would be huge, imagine the size of the cable and connector!
Practically you'd need a high voltage (440 volts, 3 phase) supply, which reduces the current by about 50%, which would only be realistic at a dedicated charging station.
So fast charging solves one problem, but only makes the infrastructures problems worse.
Mac.
Nye
Member
My view is that, in the long run, ICE cars will, like horses before them, move from being the main means of motion to being for sport and leisure.
In the medium term there are solutions to all the technical problems of switching to electrical motion, including StoreDot's fast-charging batteries, but the principal impediments remain political and financial. So, with the example mentioned above of banning gas boilers, this signals intent but it's only half the job; subsidies should be available for a valid alternative. Heat pumps are suitable (ground source only if you have a large garden) but an air-source system is about four times the cost of a gas boiler.
In the medium term there are solutions to all the technical problems of switching to electrical motion, including StoreDot's fast-charging batteries, but the principal impediments remain political and financial. So, with the example mentioned above of banning gas boilers, this signals intent but it's only half the job; subsidies should be available for a valid alternative. Heat pumps are suitable (ground source only if you have a large garden) but an air-source system is about four times the cost of a gas boiler.
PlasticMac
Member
If there is a very high power (hundreds of amps, and/or hundreds of volts, lots of kWs) source Available, then, in theory, no prob. In practice? I doubt it.
Imagine the energy demand for an EV forecourt on the scale of an M/Way Service Area. Thousands of kWs.
All this from the team that brought you Smart Motorways (aka suicide lanes).
Mac.
gills
A2OC Donor
They would need a new generation of ultra-rapid chargers (https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/connectors-speeds/), probably located at dedicated sites, such as these, which would have their own battery storage so they could deliver very rapid charge rates. They would have to operate at much higher voltages than today's EVs, so that the current didn't get too much for the connectors/cables etc. I think this sort of thing is still some way off.
PlasticMac
Member
Indeed, "some way off" may just be the ultimate understatement.
Mac
4markowen
A2OC Donor
Current EV forecourts use on site battery storage. Same really as petrol stations. But instead of a tanker delivering 1,000s in one go, you fill up the battery smartly, with what the grid can serve it.
You have to remember that Petrol is where it is from massive long term investment in infrastructure to drill, pump, pipe, ship, refine, pump, transport, pump, pump again and then burn in a car.
I'm more inclined to think of 15 minute cities and that kind of thing these days.
4markowen
A2OC Donor
our proximity to a massive ball of nuclear fusion provides us with ample energy, we've just been faffing about with the stored dino juice version of it, time to change it up.
Fortunately since all that infrastructure is in place there's development work on synthetic fuels that'll keep the more interesting cars going.
My thinking is like with vinyl, the interesting stuff is kept and retains its value, the endless Max Bygraves and Des O'Connor vinyls you find in charity shops are the ones that'll fall by the wayside.
With EV conversions I peruse autotrader and such having a think what would make a good EV candidate. I'd love to do a Range Rover L322 as they're just hitting a nice price point. A Merc SL. But when thinking about a Honda S2000 it would be wrong to swap out such an interesting engine.
Johnny Smith had his S600 up for sale recently and again, you wouldn't EV it as the engine is a part of its character.
Same is true for a lot of classic conversions in they are literally bolt in and out with the ICE engine being stored safely in a crate. The Ferrari 308s getting done recently are interesting in just how much they improve the car.
Now is the same true for an A2? for the 3L's perhaps yes. For the more masochistic maybe the 1.6 FSI...
But to me the whole thing is intersting as a package of engineering innovations around the aero, alu chassis, and other innovations of it with or without the engine. In fact I think it lends itself so perfectly to EV conversion with the layout and design.
Fortunately since all that infrastructure is in place there's development work on synthetic fuels that'll keep the more interesting cars going.
My thinking is like with vinyl, the interesting stuff is kept and retains its value, the endless Max Bygraves and Des O'Connor vinyls you find in charity shops are the ones that'll fall by the wayside.
With EV conversions I peruse autotrader and such having a think what would make a good EV candidate. I'd love to do a Range Rover L322 as they're just hitting a nice price point. A Merc SL. But when thinking about a Honda S2000 it would be wrong to swap out such an interesting engine.
Johnny Smith had his S600 up for sale recently and again, you wouldn't EV it as the engine is a part of its character.
Same is true for a lot of classic conversions in they are literally bolt in and out with the ICE engine being stored safely in a crate. The Ferrari 308s getting done recently are interesting in just how much they improve the car.
Now is the same true for an A2? for the 3L's perhaps yes. For the more masochistic maybe the 1.6 FSI...
But to me the whole thing is intersting as a package of engineering innovations around the aero, alu chassis, and other innovations of it with or without the engine. In fact I think it lends itself so perfectly to EV conversion with the layout and design.
Nye
Member
Outrageous! Dissing Max Bygraves with that disgraceful slight, easily the finest entertainer this country or any other has known since... well, since Des O'Conner.
bretti_kivi
Member
My next, if it's a new one, will be an EV, I think. Due in early 2023. It would already drop my fuel costs in half; the smart battery ideas of the charging grid aren't mentioned anywhere up-thread.
An Enyaq is probably a better long-term ownership prop than a new ICE Octavia in 2023. No turbo to break, no servicing to complete, just tyres, brakes, and software problems
Over 4 years and 60k miles, it's going to be around €1500 per year cheaper and the depreciation is astonishing. Look at what a Model S is worth after 200' miles (in the UK maybe not, but here, they're still reaching 40% of new price!). Enyaq is around €60k new, should be worth 40k after those 4 years... I also have a 25A 3 phase supply that I can easily upgrade to a 40A one for overnight charging. Charging over time on a 15A home plug is silly but possible. If we're at the summer house for a few days... there are chargers all over the place in the town. I suspect there's one in the car park at work, too. I know you can park in Helsinki for free with an EV, as opposed to paying €8 per hour.
Costs to run an Enyaq are interesting. Cost per kWh here is €0.14, delivered; efficiency numbers of 150Wh/km translate to 6 km = 1 kWh, so 100km is around 2€ for me. Versus 5l or €7.2 at current prices with the Octy. Price-wise, assume €30k depreciation over four years, so €7.5k per year, which is 625/month, 200 more than the Octy. I suspect it might be more expensive than that, which is where it starts to be more than a little silly.
Driving 2000kms per month, I save €100 or so. So no real benefit - it's too expensive for that - but it has the range I need in winter.
IMO: It will be air pollution that pushes EVs through stricter limits on particle output. The idea of electric buses - well, we're already at trams here, I don't know why they're not more used in the UK - and that massive battery at the depot means you really can charge when there's excess capacity. Quick article on the subject here, another on the 5 min charge here; the story of the i3's engines never being started is somewhere, I can't find a link. Fossil is dead and it will go faster than anyone believes as of now. Petrolhead culture will not die. Good cars will stay, they'll just be different.
An Enyaq is probably a better long-term ownership prop than a new ICE Octavia in 2023. No turbo to break, no servicing to complete, just tyres, brakes, and software problems
Over 4 years and 60k miles, it's going to be around €1500 per year cheaper and the depreciation is astonishing. Look at what a Model S is worth after 200' miles (in the UK maybe not, but here, they're still reaching 40% of new price!). Enyaq is around €60k new, should be worth 40k after those 4 years... I also have a 25A 3 phase supply that I can easily upgrade to a 40A one for overnight charging. Charging over time on a 15A home plug is silly but possible. If we're at the summer house for a few days... there are chargers all over the place in the town. I suspect there's one in the car park at work, too. I know you can park in Helsinki for free with an EV, as opposed to paying €8 per hour.Costs to run an Enyaq are interesting. Cost per kWh here is €0.14, delivered; efficiency numbers of 150Wh/km translate to 6 km = 1 kWh, so 100km is around 2€ for me. Versus 5l or €7.2 at current prices with the Octy. Price-wise, assume €30k depreciation over four years, so €7.5k per year, which is 625/month, 200 more than the Octy. I suspect it might be more expensive than that, which is where it starts to be more than a little silly.
Driving 2000kms per month, I save €100 or so. So no real benefit - it's too expensive for that - but it has the range I need in winter.
IMO: It will be air pollution that pushes EVs through stricter limits on particle output. The idea of electric buses - well, we're already at trams here, I don't know why they're not more used in the UK - and that massive battery at the depot means you really can charge when there's excess capacity. Quick article on the subject here, another on the 5 min charge here; the story of the i3's engines never being started is somewhere, I can't find a link. Fossil is dead and it will go faster than anyone believes as of now. Petrolhead culture will not die. Good cars will stay, they'll just be different.
dieselfan
A2OC Donor
I wish I new.....,
- Battery improvements - 20% not as much as we like nor hope...
- Charging times - 30% there are already quite impressive 20-30min charge systems there
- Comfort - 40% improved systems for further synergy related to cabin heating, cabin cooling, battery cooling, battery heating and maybe with most potensial ; re-implement the "Thermos" technology. I was used by Saab with success... heat/cool up while charging, consume while driving....
- EV Conversions - I REALLY hope there will be a good "do-it-yourselves" kit available for a handfull of options. I wish EU will give car manufactures the same score points for making conversion kit as for a sold EV. That will really gain the planet...
- Mindset - If everybody shall have a car each weighing 2-3 metric tonne.. then we are lost
- Govern requirements - We need politicians that can do what's needed, and then I mean really needed....that mean stop abundance... Let a family that need a car buy an compact EV until 1000kg, no roadtax, no roadtoll, ensurance to selfcost, and general tax deduction for taking on passengers. I hope we can see some of this within the next 10 years
- Car Technology - it is embarrassing that one of the "old" EVs on the market, the Ioniq, still is the most efficient on the market 1.15kw/10km is one third of my four Tesla S friends....
- Manufacturers focus - please take yourselves together and be a man !!! Use your engineering recourses for the right thing... Make efficient cars, with exchangeable batteries, so that batteries can be charged when infrastructure allows. Make light cars, focus on light, efficient solutions not leather interior, not "Bently" sofa. Make planet friendly cars, not cars for bullys. People that buy the biggest and heaviest car available so the they will survive regardless of how ruthlessly they drive is out, fare out.... Agree up on a standard platform, agree on four standard battery sizes,
- Battery management - let the government own batteries for the basic cars subsidised by taxes from the bully's, let government buy 25% extra amount of batteries, so batteries can be charged when the supply net allows for it.
- Tax management - (I respect those of you that have bought 2x Tesla X will ban me after this, but this is my honest opinion....)
| VAT | Tax | Road Toll | Charge | Battery |
Basic car 1T 1kw/10km w/o battery | 0% | 25% | 0% | Non-profit | Free |
Basic car 1T 1.5kw/10km w/o battery | 0% | 50% | 25% | Non-profit | 25% |
Basic car 7seat or 1m2 1,5T 1,5kw/10km | 25% | 50% | 50% | Profit | 25% |
Bulley car above 1.5T 1.5kw/10km | 100% | 125% | 125% | Profit | 100% |
Bulley car until 2T or 1.5kw/10km | 125% | 150% | 150% | Profit | 125% |
Bulley car 2T+ or 1.5+ kw/10km | 125% | 200% | 200% | Profit+25% | 150% |
My sincere hope is that Audi will make the A2e very much like the concept car.
I hope we can buy small efficient add on exhaust cleaners so we can "use up" our A2s and when engine is gone, we will have access to EV city conversions set...
If I only can have one of my wishes fulfilled...... I ask for the A2e
dieselfan
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A little off topic but regarding electricity demand with a switch away from gas/oil: heat pumps (ground or air source) have no problem heating hot water these days. Im currently heating my water with an air source heat pump. Its -1.5C outside and the unit is drawing 2.2kw. It peaked at 2.7kw when hot water heating started 30 minutes ago. Two one hour hot water sessions run per day. We've ample hot water with that. (190L tank heated to 50C). Once a week the water has to be heated to 60C which requires the immersion unit and draws 6kw for 30min. In a 250m2 stone house, uninsulated walls, but with good windows and roof insulation maintaining 20C throughout the house demand is typically 2kw when outdoor temps are below 5C and around 0.85kw when above this.
Hmm, interesting thoughts. What makes a Jaguar etype so special and expensive? I think its a combination of perceived beauty and rarity. The aspect that ultimately makes a car rare is when they stop making new ones. Indeed a large part of the A2's attractiveness is that you can't buy a new one. In 9 years time most cars will be in this bracket since most models will change significantly (or be replaced) due to electric being packaged differently. So unless the government make it financially impossible, I think we will go through a period of 10 years or so when the second hand market might generally go up in value. As an extreme case consider an Audi R8 V10. Imagine the day the last one rolls off the production line. All Aluminium, should last a long time, and when you can no longer buy a new one, the good second hand ones will surely appreciate quite quickly.
chubbybrown
Member
with the phasing in of E10 Petrol those Early A2 Fsi models are going to have problems
www.acea.be
We are being guided a certain way if we like it or not, Diesel should be a round a lot longer until you wont be able to buy it unless you have a farm or Truck the way Gas oil went, so the process is already in place
E10 petrol fuel: vehicle compatibility list
The European Union Fuel Quality Directive introduced a new market petrol specification from 1 January 2011 that may contain up to 10% ethanol by volume (10 %vol). Such petrol is commonly known as ‘E10’.
www.acea.be
We are being guided a certain way if we like it or not, Diesel should be a round a lot longer until you wont be able to buy it unless you have a farm or Truck the way Gas oil went, so the process is already in place
PlasticMac
Member
FSIs should be running 98/99 octane Super Unleaded, which is E5 (5% alcohol), and compatible.with the phasing in of E10 Petrol those Early A2 Fsi models are going to have problems
E10 petrol fuel: vehicle compatibility list
The European Union Fuel Quality Directive introduced a new market petrol specification from 1 January 2011 that may contain up to 10% ethanol by volume (10 %vol). Such petrol is commonly known as ‘E10’.
We are being guided a certain way if we like it or not, Diesel should be a round a lot longer until you wont be able to buy it unless you have a farm or Truck the way Gas oil went, so the process is already in place
I think E5 will be around a while yet. Lots of classic cars, like the FSI, need it too.
Mac.