Questionable Climate Control

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philhusbands

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Hi everyone!

I've had a search through the archives, but I cant find any answers to this...

This recent gloooorious weather does have the adverse effect of making the interior of my A2 very warm indeed! No problem though, as I have Climate Control.

I've got a bit of a query regarding its performance though, so I thought I would put this to all of you and see what you think.
In the past, I have set the CC to something like 18c and let it do its thing. I have found however that doing this did not really ensure a steady cold blast to get the temperature down as fast as possible. So instead I set it to LO and always made sure that the ECON is off of course.

What I have found is that the resulting expelled air is not always really that cold. In fact, it's temperature seems to vary between mildly tepid and definetely chilly!
It does this on AUTO, but I thought it was because the CC's 'brain' was at work making all of its clever adjustments.

In my experience with other cars with run-of-the-mill AC, switching the AC on ensures that the air is unquestionably refridgerated. In my A2, I am sometimes left wondering if it is working at all.

On my return home today I was sure that the CC was not chilling the air as much as it should be. I switched on ECON and felt the air from the vents - not too cold at all as expected. I switched the ECON off, and I could hear things in the dash whiring into life, but only detected a very small drop in the temerature of the air.
And then further curiosities. I turn the engine off, and then restart. After a brief pause the CC jumps into action and joy! Ice cold air streams from the vents. It was as if switching off the engine had somehow reset something?

The net result of all this is of course that I am still unsatisfactorily hot in my A2, even with the CC on LO and ECON switched off. [7]
Has anyone experienced anything similiar? Is there a problem? Or am I using the CC incorrectly? Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Cheers everyone...

Phil. TDi Sport, silver, with Climate and OpenSky.
 
hmm this sounds wrong! i leave my CC on 22 degrees at all times and in this beautiful hot weather, it starts off freezing to get the temp down to 22 inside the car, then it milds off a little bit (well, air flow slows to very slow) and maintains the temp pretty perfectly (looking at an analog temp guage).

I have rarely needed to turn the CC to LO apart from seeing how cold i can physically make the car... at which point, the girlfriend starts moaning and overrides my decision :p

[img=left]http://homepage.ntlworld.com/preppeller/audiicon.jpg[/img=left] A2 1.6FSI Sport in Azure Blue with strange blue sports interior
climate control, scratched front offside alloy, tape player.
 
COuld be a sensor problem. Have you hoovered out the little grill about the CC panel recently?

Steve - 2002 1.4SE petrol, Silver, black/black interior, Then an identical replacement 2003 A2. Now a Toyota Corolla 1.6 T-Spirit
 
Can't say I have had a problem? Car seems to get nice and cold when I want it too!

I have thought some times that it is colder than others but just put it down to my hot flush's
 
Apparently
If you don't use your air-con often it takes the compressor at least 20 mins to get the air chilled properly.
In my A2 if i select the temp to be 19c it starts slowly then the fan kicks in on max speed and you can feel the air is chilled but as i am bombing round the M60 by the time i come off my slip road which is about 20mins after leaving work i notice the air is colder then before and the fan has slowed, thus regulating the temp.
That seems to me the way the air-con works in my A2, and has been since i purchased the car.
The only thing i can think of which could go wrong with an air-con system is the compressor located under the alternator may not be working properly or the system needs a fresh charge of refridgerant.
What is the life of the refridgerant?

Anyway hope you sort your problem out.
[21][?]

cheers

Andy

A.D.Simmons
 
Hi Phil,

It could be a few things, however here are the options;

1) Air-mix doors are not set correctly.
2) Backlash in the actuators causing the doors not to close fully, leading to warm air leakage.
3) Reduced air flow over the evaporator (due to blocked cabin air filter)
4) Low level of Refridgerant on the high pressure side of the system.

Now, from my experience of AUDI A/C units, it sounds very much like either item 1 or 2. The AUDI A/C logic has an 'initialisation' setting, which on powering up the car will try to reset the airmix door positions. This could explain the fact that restarting the car improves the condition, however I would expect that once you move the airmix doors (i.e. turn temp up), you wouldn't be able get the full cold air back.

Also, for your reference, the reason why things whir into life when you change turn the ECON off/on, is because the system uses different logic for ON or OFF, and moves the air mix and mode doors to compensate any sudden changes in temp.

Kaine

P.S. If you want a more techie explanation, let me know

P.S. Your friendly ex Aircon Development Engineer - [8D]
 
or forgot to add something;

Yes, there does seem to be a problem with your ac unit - the dealer should be able to check the actuator settings etc from the panel by pressing a unique combination of buttons, and confirm this. If you are there, ask them to show that the airmix doors are fully closed when in max cool

Kaine
 
Many thanks for all the info everyone! Especially you Kaine. This'll give me loads to raise with the dealer when I call them today!

Jeez, this forum should be mentioned in Audi A2 sales literature. Its a significant factor in my enjoyment of the car!

I'll let you know how I get on...

Phil. TDi Sport, silver, with Climate and OpenSky.
 
OK, I've phoned my dealer - Vincents in Exeter.

After having explained the problem, the chap from the service desk strongly suspected a low refridgerant gas level as the culprit.
I mentioned the fact that after turning the engine off and restarting the AC seemed to work again, possibly suggesting a sensor problem. He explained that there is a vacumn in there which could be being expelled when I turn the engine off, thereby bringing the AC back into life upon restarting.

Anyway, its booked in for a week today and they are going to run a diagnostic. If there's a problem it'll be fixed under warranty as mine is an April 03 build.
However, if it needs refridgerant thats £88 inc vat not under warranty. Call me cynical, but I'm expecting a bill as if I was my dealer I'd give it a fill up anyway to make sure.

Also, the fact that mine is only 14 months old begs the question 'How long should the refidgerant last?' Surely longer than 14 months? If it has depleted already there must be a leak. If there is a leak then this should be under warranty...

How often has anyone else had to 'top-up' they're AC?

Cheers!

Phil. TDi Sport, silver, with Climate and OpenSky.
 
quote:Originally posted by philhusbands

After having explained the problem, the chap from the service desk strongly suspected a low refridgerant gas level as the culprit.
Click to expand...
Definetely one of the options.
quote:I mentioned the fact that after turning the engine off and restarting the AC seemed to work again, possibly suggesting a sensor problem.
Click to expand...
Not really phil - the sensor wouldn't really cause the problem as you are describing as in LOW, the sensors are ignored from the system, and from my understanding you still are not convinced the air is cool enough - correct?
quote:He explained that there is a vacumn in there which could be being expelled when I turn the engine off, thereby bringing the AC back into life upon restarting.
Click to expand...
What Vacuum? Where in the system? If you can, ask him to explain exactly where the vacuum is and how it gets expelled? Me thinks he is guessing!!!
quote:However, if it needs refridgerant thats £88 inc vat not under warranty. Call me cynical, but I'm expecting a bill as if I was my dealer I'd give it a fill up anyway to make sure.
Click to expand...
This could resolve the problem, however if they do that, make sure you benchmark it against another AUDI (not necessarily A2) before you leave. The AUDI standards for air temp at the vent outlets are the same for any model, so dont let them tell you its a charateristic of the A2.
quote:Also, the fact that mine is only 14 months old begs the question 'How long should the refidgerant last?' Surely longer than 14 months? If it has depleted already there must be a leak. If there is a leak then this should be under warranty...
How often has anyone else had to 'top-up' they're AC?
Click to expand...
A/C units do leak - every system does. However there is a standard to ensure it lasts past the 3 years warranty (suprise suprise). Each system as a defined cc of refridegerant for optimum performance - this figure also includes a year on year leakage amount (around 3-5% per year) to allow for the system to still meet the original design intent within the first few years, and normally upto a defined 'major service'. However saying that, if you drive your car vigourously enough, the liquid will reduce quicker due to stresses on the hose and pipe joints.

Kaine
 
Hi again!

Kaine, many many thanks again for your help here. You really are a knowledgeable chap!

quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mentioned the fact that after turning the engine off and restarting the AC seemed to work again, possibly suggesting a sensor problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not really phil - the sensor wouldn't really cause the problem as you are describing as in LOW, the sensors are ignored from the system, and from my understanding you still are not convinced the air is cool enough - correct?
Click to expand...
Correct. And your point makes perfect sense.


I'm certain there is something wrong. A friend with an A6 pointed out to me that the fan is still blowing hard even after 20 minutes or so because the cabin temp is never reaching my selected temp, caused by the fact that the expelled air is simply not cold enough.

Needless to say that if it is the refridgerant levels I will 'negotiate' with my dealer in an attempt to get them to agree that it should've lasted longer, but we'll see...
I certainly dont drive vigourously, but I cant speak for the lady who had the car for the 8 months before me!

The only bummer is that I have to suffer in the heat for a week! You wait and see, come the time that its fixed the weather will turn! [8D]

Thanks for your replies again everyone. I'll let you know the outcome...

Phil. TDi Sport, silver, with Climate and OpenSky.
 
Phil,

My previous job was A/C Product Engineer for DENSO Corp - the biggest A/C manufacturer in the world. I was personally involved in the design and development of the previous A6 (C5) and A8 (D2 & D3) which are made in Telford, Shrops. Unfortunately the A2 unit was designed and developed by Behr GmbH, and they have had a few teething problems - but since it was AUDI, it was sorted.

I have dealt with most major car manufacturers over the last 7 years, and from my experience with in working with the various engineering and quality departments, AUDI are top of the pile.

Kaine
 
Kaine, with your background I'm certainly glad that my thread found you! Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

I've been thinking about this little issue, and I'm convinced that if low levels of refridgerant are to blame then I'm not prepared to foot the bill.

My reasoning? I took delivery of the car in January this year, so this is the first time that I have called upon the A/C. Despite the understandable fact that all A/C systems will leak, I'm sure that 14 months (the total age of the car) is too short a period for the gas to last. If I'm wrong, is this a bill I should expect to pay annually? I think not. Previous cars I have owned and others owned by friends have never required a gas top-up, despite the car being almost a decade old.

Further to this, my dealer has indicated that I will foot the bill as the gas is a consumable not covered under warranty. However is it not true that when selling an 'Audi approved' used car, the dealer will ensure that the vehicle has sufficent oil, brake fluid and enough fuel to see me on my way? All of which are of course consumables. I would argue that if my problems are caused by low gas levels then they were too low when I took delivery of the car only 6 months ago. And if this is not the case, then the leakage has occured within 6 months, indicating a fault - thereby covered under warranty.

I'm jumping the gun as I havent even seen my dealer yet, albeit to book the car in. But I will be putting this to them, very politely of course, before they start the work.

I'm interested to hear what you all think of my argument though. Does my case hold water? (Or refridgerant gas?! [13]), or am I being unreasonable?[2] Consensus please!

Phil. TDi Sport, silver, with Climate and OpenSky.
 
I'm I going mad or just not understanding things here? By my reconning pressing the ECON button switches the AC completely off. You can set it to LO but the air coming in can't possibly be any colder than the outside air as there is nothing cooling it. You only ever use the ECON button if you want to save fuel and feel the external air is of a decent enough temperature to not need additional cooling... So it is no wonder you get warm or mixed temperature air coming in when the ECON button is pressed surely?

____________________________________________________________________________________
[img=left]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-2/11882/a2andme2.gif[/img=left]
2001 A2 TDI SE Crystal Blue with Open Sky, 6CD Symphony II, BOSE upgrade, DIS and HALF a winterpack!

iPAQ 3970 with Sat-Nav sleeve, rear cupholders, luggage net and floppy wiper!

http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/uk23.htm
 
Johann,

Phil quoted that he made sure the ECON button was switched OFF.

quote:So instead I set it to LO and always made sure that the ECON is off of course.
Click to expand...

I think the problem is Phil is not getting cold air even with the AC on.

Kaine
 
In my experience most modern Audis have super cold air con system which should be cold to the touch almost immediately if run in LO mode. If the car has baked in extreme sun all day then it should be effective in a minute or so.

Almost always for me its been low (or no) coolant - the bad news is why has it escaped (stone damage, pipe leak, bad seal). On the A3/TT and up CC you can partly diagnose the lack of refrigerant via the climate panel diagnostic codes. Its a shame that no one has found a way to do this on the A2.

Recently my RS2 (manual a/c) suddenly had no cold air. AFter a recharge and putting some dye in its so far held up OK for a couple of weeks. I may have been lucky.

Dave

1.6SE
 
My brain's ECON button was obviously also OFF when I read that! LOL All makes sense again!

____________________________________________________________________________________
[img=left]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-2/11882/a2andme2.gif[/img=left]
2001 A2 TDI SE Crystal Blue with Open Sky, 6CD Symphony II, BOSE upgrade, DIS and HALF a winterpack!

iPAQ 3970 with Sat-Nav sleeve, rear cupholders, luggage net and floppy wiper!

http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/uk23.htm
 
Phil

I have never (tempting providence?) had to get an air con system filled, this covers a previous model Vectra (run for 2 years), a Megane Scenic (run for 3 years), a Peugeot 206cc (6 Mmonths), a Passat (4 years) and the A2 (Almost 2 years).

It sounds as if you have a leak - if it is from a connection its Audi's fault, if it is pipe damage maybe not!

Ian

2002 1.4 Petrol SE, silver with climate control for SWMBO, Honda Accord Tourer 2.2 iCDTi for me.
 
Hi again everyone!

Thanks for your continued posts. Johann - I'm with you! My bonce seems to constantly switch itself to LO!

Well, took the A2 into my dealer this morning, and started to raise some of the issues I've mentioned here.
My first question was along the lines of "Is this a bill I need to expect every 14 months then?" To which the response involved an explanation of the effects of turning the AC off in winter. Apparently, doing so carries the risk of significant leakage when the AC is turned on again after a long spell of non-use. Is this true? I have no idea. Kaine?!

In any case, I reminded him that I have only had the car since January and I suggested that if low refridgerant is the cause of the problem then it must have been low when I took delivery of the car. If it was not, then there must be a leak etc... I was assured that all levels are checked as part of the Audi 'Approved' inspection, and that this includes the refridgerant gas. They will check for leaks.

The guy I was speaking to seemed like no dope, and he appeared to know exactly where I was coming from. Lets see what happens when I get the car back later...

Phil. TDi Sport, silver, with Climate and OpenSky.
 
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