ECO cars 2010 and beyond?

300+ mpg does raise the bar by some margin though. Plus there are plenty of 2 seater cars on the road at the moment, so to some people it will be an acceptable compromise
 
drakey70 said:
Ive been thinking outside the box on this and petrol/diesel or electric are as bad as each other.

Petrol/diesel they have to drill and all the associated refining.

Electric you plug it into the mains and where does that come from powerstations with there co2 discharges.

Of the 2 petrol/diesel gives the greater economy i think.
Click to expand...

What you are forgetting is that internal combustion runs at around 30% efficiency, whereas electric runs at, what, 70% efficiency? so even if you get your electricity from coal (boooh!) it will be greener than burning diesel in an internal combustion engine.

The other thing is that, with electricity, there is greater scope to control emissions (not just talking about CO2). Living in a city I can say that I would definitely prefer particulates to be emitted somewhere where population density is low!!!
 
Andy Fisher said:
I am also of exactly the same opinion as Lukas. I've now had my 1.2 Tdi for 7 years and have done 105,000 miles. I can't see me ever getting rid of this brilliant car. I average about 90mpg running around town and have had as much as 120mpg on a very careful run.
I can't see anything in development which is less damaging to the environment.
Electric cars create pollution at the power station (until we get over the bias against wind generators in the UK) and where will we get all the hydrogen from if we all get fuel cell cars? Electrolysis of water is the main way of getting hydrogen and this uses lots of electricity! Back to square one.
Manufacturers are slowly getting closer but there's still nothing (including the Blue Motion Lupo) that offers the same combination of economy and practicality that the A2 3L offers.
Click to expand...

See, I don't think it is back to square one at all! Fact: internal combustion extremely inefficient, electric very efficient. Thus, even dirty electric emits less CO2/km than the most efficient internal combustion engine. Fact: hydrogen is essentially a way of storing electricity - the fact that you need electricity to produce it, and gain electricity when you combine it with oxygen, is the whole point! So it is not back to square one at all. It is forward to the future! HSBC analysts recently stated that they expect the world's oil supply to run out within the next 50 years. Now, when there is no oil left, electric cars will not only be for "hippies" ;-) ...that much I can guarantee.

For now - I am very happy with my A2, and hope to be driving it for many years to come. But I am hoping that by the time it gives up its ghost, electric cars will have become affordable.
 
When electric or range extender/hybrids have the ability to cover 500 miles without a refuel and can be charged up in 5 mins then I am happy to go el;ectric. Until they have the convenience of an internal combustion engined car they will not be a major player in the market. Also what happens to batteries in very cold weather........? They perform very poor and loose their efficiency rapidly. We also have the looming issue of pwer cuts when the coal fired and nuclear power stations close over the next few years and are not being replaced with similar capacity that runs 24/7 (wind turbines simply do not geneerate the claimed capacity). So how are we going to produce the electricty required? And how long before elctricity used to re-charge cars is taxed? It will happen and anyone who thinks it won't is naive in the extreme.
 
The other problem with battery-powered cars is that over time the batteries lose their efficiency - they can't retain their charge. That's going to be an enormous issue for the 2nd hand market - you buy a 4 year old range extender/electric car and there might be a chance that it can only manage half the distance on a full charge as when it was new, unless you can replace the entire (massively expensive) battery packs?

I know some car companies are looking at a model whereby you lease the batteries from them rather than buying them outright. Also Mercedes, who are making a fully electric SLS (the new gull-wing job) are saying that the car has to be plugged in on charge 100% of the time its not being driven as that's the only way to keep the batteries in good condition. How's that going to work on the mass-market?
 
Adrian888 said:
...Also what happens to batteries in very cold weather........? They perform very poor and loose their efficiency rapidly. We also have the looming issue of pwer cuts when the coal fired and nuclear power stations close over the next few years ...
Click to expand...

It is true even the best li-ion batteries don't perform well in snowy cold weather. Recharging times ...etc. But this is why most people don't think battery based electric car is the answer. Super Capacitors and or Hydrogen fuelcell seems to be. They can also be recharged/refueled in comparable time to liquid fossil fuels. Electric is the obvious future, just not traditional batteries. It is a matter of when.

lacking power stations is a problem for UK. Fortunately, the world doesn't stop moving forward because of one country. France gets very cheap nuclear electricity, being in London, I bet I use some of theirs when everyone flips on the kettle after eastenders.
 
dan_b said:
The other problem with battery-powered cars is that over time the batteries lose their efficiency - they can't retain their charge. That's going to be an enormous issue for the 2nd hand market - you buy a 4 year old range extender/electric car and there might be a chance that it can only manage half the distance on a full charge as when it was new, unless you can replace the entire (massively expensive) battery packs?
Click to expand...

as much as I thought that was the case, Consumer Reports in the US did exactly that test. They concluded a 9 year old (2002, 206,000 miles) Prius drives almost the same as it was and delivered virtually the same mpg. While that's with a NiMH battery, no word has been said for longevity of Li-ion or Li-polymer batteries. I also remember Toyota offers an 8 year warranty on the whole hybrid system. But my argument against batteries is as always, the dirty extraction of the chemical and disposal of it. I don't see batteries as a solution for electric motors in the long run.
 
You're absoultely right, we import a huge amount of electricity from France to cope with the peak loads - apparently the UK has the biggest peak surges of any country in the world, entirely due to the post-Enders/Corry cup of tea phenomenon being played out across the majority of the nation!

humps said:
lacking power stations is a problem for UK. Fortunately, the world doesn't stop moving forward because of one country. France gets very cheap nuclear electricity, being in London, I bet I use some of theirs when everyone flips on the kettle after eastenders.
Click to expand...
 
Hybrid isn't pure electric, the batteries only play a small part in the cars propulsion. An all electric car will suffer gradual degredation of battery performance especially in cold climates.
 
girindor said:
What you are forgetting is that internal combustion runs at around 30% efficiency, whereas electric runs at, what, 70% efficiency? so even if you get your electricity from coal (boooh!) it will be greener than burning diesel in an internal combustion engine.
...
Click to expand...

What does that 70% consist of?

In particular does that that take into account the loss of efficiency when charging & discharging the battery? For example, the Prius can regenerate electricity from braking, but it can only recover ~30% of the energy due to losses at each stage (generating, storing, discharging, then powering the motor).

In a few years car batteries may have improved to the point when they are more practical (much faster charging, & higher energy density, possibly in combination with a supercapacitor to handle the peaks), but for many people they aren't practical yet in terms of charging time and range. Also, at least half the population in the UK would find charging difficult (on-street parking, flats, etc).
 
dan_b said:
That's impressive for quite a big heavy car. Come on Audi get the new A2 out...
Click to expand...

Just looked at the VW site and a Golf Match Bluemotion with 7 speed DSG gearbox claims 72mpg and 109g/km. That Focus must have been to Weigh****chers!

John.
 
Poor_John said:
Just looked at the VW site and a Golf Match Bluemotion with 7 speed DSG gearbox claims 72mpg and 109g/km. That Focus must have been to Weigh****chers!

John.
Click to expand...

Loving the anti swear filter ban on the middle 4 letters of Weight Watchers which spells a rude word often used to describe a lady's front garden...
 
humps said:
France gets very cheap nuclear electricity, being in London, I bet I use some of theirs when everyone flips on the kettle after eastenders.
Click to expand...

Maybe we can export some water to them in exchange. They use over 50% of their fresh water for nuclear power stations. And cheap it is not. Quite the contrary, totally reliant on government subsidies. But I rather suspect this is a topic for a different forum, as it has nothing to do with cars or the A2 :)
 
Well the French have lots of nuclear plants which use river water rather than sea water as the coolant sink but that doesn't mean the water is not drinkable, it just requires a lot of flow and they are restricted by how much they can raise the river water temperature when the reactors are running, which limits output during the summer...
 
Be that as it may, I for one will continue buying my electricity from Green Energy UK and will try to keep the A2 going for long enough so that my next car can be an affordable second hand all-electric. It's the future. And hopefully it will be an Audi too :-D
 
i think the point is, this world cannot run without electricity. Where as it is possible (not easy) to run transportation without oil as long as we have electricity. With oil running out, there is only one way forward, unless some bright scientists discover another mean of viable propulsion system.

There are some interesting tech going on that gassifies deep coal (too deep or dangerous for mining), producing hydrogen. These are sites without much water source for steam based electricity generation, so the hydrogen is used in hydrogen fuel-cell (HFC) electricity production. The hydrogen can possibly be a source for HFC electric cars. I'm quite looking forward to see what HFC cars can deliver, they look far more promising than battery-based electric cars.

In the meantime, if I won the lottery...hmm... make that EuroMillions, I'll be ordering my Porsche 918 Spyder for its 70g/km CO2 (that's free of road tax?) and 94mpg (don't ask about range) eco-credential :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top