ECO cars 2010 and beyond?

Think I'll go for the electric Rolls and next gen hybrid Range Rover:rolleyes:

I seem to recall being told years ago by 'experts' oil would have run out by 2000, then 2010, then 2020, now 2050..... so forgive me for being a bit tired and cynical of all the end is nigh stuff about oil. Which is not to say I would not go for an electric car GIVEN the same benefits as a petrol/diesel. Also what about oil from coal which kept Germany going through WW2 and S Africa through the aperthaid restrictions? We float on the stuff in the UK!
 
Oil will never run out, but it will gradually get more and more expensive as drillers move onto the harder sources (the so-called 'peak oil' effect).

While I like the idea of fully electric vehicles in theory, they've got a long way to go before they're really practical.
 
Here's something from today out of the Economist http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/04/energy_prices

I think most of us are quite good at sticking our heads in the sand. Truth is, the sooner we move away from oil the less we will be affected by this economically. Which is why I am happy with my efficient A2 for now. But by the time I buy my next car, I will be looking for something much more efficient, as oil prices will probably reaching prices like £1.90/l
 
Here's something from today out of the Economist http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/04/energy_prices

I think most of us are quite good at sticking our heads in the sand. Truth is, the sooner we move away from oil the less we will be affected by this economically. Which is why I am happy with my efficient A2 for now. But by the time I buy my next car, I will be looking for something much more efficient, as oil prices will probably reaching prices like £1.90/l
 
What do folk think of the Vauxhall Ampera (apart from the ver expensive list price!) / Volt:

Makers claim 250mpg and 25 g/km Co2 but his is in plug in battery mode with no consideration of CO2 produced from power station's coal burning.

Auto Trend claim 44 mpg (uk) average

Eureka (Times) did a piece on all electric cars and said they were higher CO2 than expected due Coal: 106g/km
 
girindor said:
But by the time I buy my next car, I will be looking for something much more efficient, as oil prices will probably reaching prices like £1.90/l
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I guess you will be buying your next car in the not so distant future?:p diesel is not far off £1.50L now. I can't see it being that long till £1.90:eek:
 
'Which' calculated that a Nissan Leaf, because of the way electricity is generated in the UK, has emissions of 81g CO2/km, no better than a 3L.

RAB
 
New BMW i3 which looks like a fat a2 is 77g/km co2 on uk electricity mix.

If they threw out the batts and put in a 1.2tdi maybe it would be a genuine successor to the A2!
 
RAB said:
'Which' calculated that a Nissan Leaf, because of the way electricity is generated in the UK, has emissions of 81g CO2/km, no better than a 3L.

RAB
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Given the way manufacturers have tweaked and fiddled with their cars over recent years to manipulate the CO2 figures it makes you wonder where the A2 would be today in any guise with the same 'fiddles'?

IMO the 1.4TDi would be well below the 100g mark and the petrols would be sub 120?

These figures would be with tweaked original engines but the mind boggles at where they'd be with more modern engines like the 1.2 petrol from the Up!
 
ecoangel said:
New BMW i3 which looks like a fat a2 is 77g/km co2 on uk electricity mix.

If they threw out the batts and put in a 1.2tdi maybe it would be a genuine successor to the A2!
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But it wouldn't be nearly silent and do 0-60 in 7 seconds would it? I don't understand why people keep dressing it up as nothing new or somehow a failure?

Cheers
 
To sell a carbon-fibre electric car for under £30k looks like a success to me.
For sure, in time the range will improve, the costs reduce etc etc, but against where similar cars were 10 years ago this is a positive step forward.
 
Whilst it's a shame Audi stopped the electric A2 (mk1, and mk2) , I am not anti the bmw i3 (except for the nonsense media hype about it being a £25k wundercar - just look at the basic spec sheet and it soon goes beyond £30k). It does have some great technology (like heat pump option for battery and cabin). But in real world terms there are issues bmw could address to make it even better:

1. Apart from orange (which costs £530 plus at least £1000 to £2000 for an interior upgrade because you can't have it in standard!), all the colours are monotone from white through 50 shades of silver grey.

2. Sucide doors and fixed rear glass - how on earth do rear pax get out in an emergency if the front occupants are unable to open their doors? How do you get to rear seats in a carpark?

3. Boot space is tiny (200 litres) cf A2 Mk1

4. 80-100 miles EV range - when new. I understand the i3 battery warranty is for 100,000 miles and 8 years. So what is the capacity/range after a few years? In winter v summer? VW E-UP is marketed as 60 miles Winter range 99 miles summer range. Capacity reduction with time (>3%/year) means you effectively have an even smaller but still heavy electric fuel tank as time goes on

5. Most Journos complained about the A2 A pillars at roundabouts - the i3 has even fatter ones!

6. REx: 660cc petrol - why not a small diesel gen like the XL1 or mini turbine or diesel engine? Could a few more Li-on batts be put in the space if no REx?

7. Carbon Fibre is very very difficult to re-cycle and firemen don't like it when is catches fire (particulates/fibres far worse than diesel).

8. Some good lateral thinking re: option cars for long trips and servicing packages from bmw i - but at a cost! Some >= £50 per month.


Probably around towns EVs will prove the most efficient. But going on long trips or up mountains will need a REx or pure diesel car.
 
Today I have seen in the course of 1 hour in Richmond:
1x Renault Twizzy
1x Nissan Leaf
1x Vauxhall Ampera
1x Prius Plus (which I believe has the plug-in recharge?)
And more regular Priuses than I care to remember (all minicabs)

Plus two A2s!

Something's in the air
 
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ecoangel said:
1. Apart from orange (which costs £530 plus at least £1000 to £2000 for an interior upgrade because you can't have it in standard!), all the colours are monotone from white through 50 shades of silver grey.

2. Sucide doors and fixed rear glass - how on earth do rear pax get out in an emergency if the front occupants are unable to open their doors? How do you get to rear seats in a carpark?

3. Boot space is tiny (200 litres) cf A2 Mk1

...

5. Most Journos complained about the A2 A pillars at roundabouts - the i3 has even fatter ones!
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All of these criticisms could be levelled at many cars. They aren't specifically disadvantages of EVs.

4. 80-100 miles EV range - when new. I understand the i3 battery warranty is for 100,000 miles and 8 years. So what is the capacity/range after a few years? In winter v summer? VW E-UP is marketed as 60 miles Winter range 99 miles summer range. Capacity reduction with time (>3%/year) means you effectively have an even smaller but still heavy electric fuel tank as time goes on
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I agree, this is the hurdle manufacturers are going to have to get people to jump.

6. REx: 660cc petrol - why not a small diesel gen like the XL1 or mini turbine or diesel engine? Could a few more Li-on batts be put in the space if no REx?
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Weight savings maybe?

7. Carbon Fibre is very very difficult to re-cycle and firemen don't like it when is catches fire (particulates/fibres far worse than diesel).
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But the benefit through weight saving and strength/rigidity is huge. Yes CF is nasty when it burns but how is that a comparison with diesel particulates? Diesels go around polluting constantly, CF cars don't drive around on fire!

The point I keep wanting to make is that we have to start somewhere.

http://www.hyundai.co.uk/about-us/en...l%20cell%20car

It's about time hydrogen became commercially available with associated research into how to produce it economically. As a fuel source for this type of application it is, IMHO, the future.
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Hydrogen is an interesting one, but it has many many disadvantages, not least the lack of infrastructure. I remember 10 years ago or so BMW built some prototypes that used hydrogen as fuel in internal combustion engines which was very interesting (to me!)

Cheers
 
"Hydrogen is an interesting one, but it has many many disadvantages, not least the lack of infrastructure. I remember 10 years ago or so BMW built some prototypes that used hydrogen as fuel in internal combustion engines which was very interesting (to me!)"


That's my point though - there's been no investment in the infrastructure for hydrogen even though it is a truly green fuel. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why but frustrating when we keep getting blitzed by climate change related initiatives and associated taxes...
 
FSiMan said:
That's my point though - there's been no investment in the infrastructure for hydrogen even though it is a truly green fuel. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why but frustrating when we keep getting blitzed by climate change related initiatives and associated taxes...
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It's not really that green as you need electricity to make it, so it depends on how green your electricity is and it won't be if you're in the UK.

RAB
 
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Presumably from an energy saving standpoint an existing car would need to be pretty terrible for economy to offset the environmental costs of making a new electric car.
Maybe some of the biodiesels, such as those being trialled in Helsinki by Neste Oil, would make the environmental impact of an Audi A2 Tdi pretty much zero if you account for the "renewable" nature of this fuel?
The efficiency arguments in favour of electric motors as a propulsion system are in my opinion much stronger in relation to marine propulsion where the motors are more efficient and allow for associated diesel/gas turbine generation to run at there most efficient load. Where you have a diesel/electric system on a large scale physical engines can be turned on or off as needed and this saves a great deal more energy than is possible in a car needing to carry its batteries.
Also when you factor in the energy and materials needed to make batteries the 40%-50% reduction in wasted energy in the drive system really seems quite trivial!
Hybrids are daft in this regard too as you end up carrying a not effectively employed engine and heavy batteries. In a ship this does not matter as the weight of an engine does not contribute as large a part of the overall mass as the batteries of an EV. Even the proposed electric vehicle ferries achieve their efficiency more as a result of expensive and tricky construction methods and unconventional hull shapes that would benefit a diesel powered ship in much the same way.
Environmental impact is a hard topic to deal with in a truly balanced manner and much of our research into new technology is not advanced enough yet to support the idea of a complete change of the system without many unintended negative consequences and difficulties.
 
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